Personal Relationships With Jesus Are Dangerous —- For the Church Business

Many are interpreting what the pope says here as an attempt to turn people away from Jesus.

I don’t see it that way. I see a businessman saying that any relationship with Jesus is impossible if you go it alone without supporting the church——- financially.


ht/ udogu

52 Comments on Personal Relationships With Jesus Are Dangerous —- For the Church Business

  1. It appears that the pontiff’s (pope francis) socialist agenda and interpretation of faith, global warming and embracing islam while thousands of Christians are murdered has hit the catholic bank. Not to mention the pay-out for abusing priests.

    No need for man-made trinkets and relics.

    The “Church” is the assemblage of Christians.
    “And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”
    Acts 11:26 Not Rome.

    Yes, you can have a direct and personal relationship with Jesus Christ outside the meditation of the catholic church. It is not dangerous or harmful. Just as an assemblage of Christ’s earliest Christians and the Christians today. You need no intermediary to receive salvation, just answer the knock at the door. He’s waiting.

    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

  2. There was an error in the manuscript copying, it was supposed to be “Cheeses”.
    The real name in Aramaic is Yeshua. The same name as Moses assistant had. The Greek translator picked Joshua. There is no internal consistency.

  3. “I see a businessman saying that any relationship with Jesus is impossible if you go it alone without supporting the church——- financially”

    Haven’t read it yet, but if that’s the case, then I’m pretty sure Jesus would rebuke him for that.

    Catholic church didn’t exist during His time. I doubt He would require the church to be between Him and everyone on Earth sometime in the future.

    Convince me otherwise.

  4. 1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, in saying, “Repent ye, etc.,” intended that the whole life of his believers on earth should be a constant penance.

    2. And the word “penance” neither can, nor may, be understood as referring to the Sacrament of Penance, that is, to confession and atonement as exercised under the priest’s ministry.

    3. Nevertheless He does not think of inward penance only: rather is inward penance worthless unless it produces various outward mortifications of the flesh.

    4. Therefore mortification continues as long as hatred of oneself continues, that is to say, true inward penance lasts until entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)
    5. The Pope will not, and cannot, remit other punishments than those which he has imposed by his own decree or according to the canons.

    6. The Pope can forgive sins only in the sense, that he declares and confirms what may be forgiven of God; or that he doth it in those cases which he hath reserved to himself; be this contemned, the sin remains unremitted.

    7. God forgives none his sin without at the same time casting him penitent and humbled before the priest His vicar.

    8. The canons concerning penance are imposed only on the living; they ought not by any means, following the same canons, to be imposed on the dying.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)
    9. Therefore, the Holy Spirit, acting in the Pope, does well for us, when the latter in his decrees entirely removes the article of death and extreme necessity.

    10. Those priests act unreasonably and ill who reserve for Purgatory the penance imposed on the dying.

    11. This abuse of changing canonical penalty into the penalty of Purgatory seems to have arisen when the bishops were asleep.

    12. In times of yore, canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before, absolution, as tests of true repentance and affliction.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)
    13. The dying pay all penalties by their death, are already dead to the canons, and rightly have exemption from them.

    14. Imperfect spiritual health or love in the dying person necessarily brings with it great fear; and the less this love is, the greater the fear it brings.

    15. This fear and horror – to say nothing of other things – are sufficient in themselves to produce the punishment of Purgatory, because they approximate to the horror of despair.

    16. Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven seem to differ as perfect despair, imperfect despair, and security of salvation differ.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)
    17. It seems as must in Purgatory love in the souls increase, as fear diminishes in them.

    18. It does not seem to be proved either by arguments or by the Holy Writ that they are outside the state of merit and demerit, or increase of love.

    19. This, too, seems not to be proved, that they are all sure and confident of their salvation, though we may be quite sure of it.

    20. Therefore the Pope, in speaking of the perfect remission of all punishments, does not mean that all penalties in general be forgiven, but only those imposed by himself.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)
    21. Therefore, those preachers of indulgences err who say that, by the Pope’s indulgence, a man may be exempt from all punishments, and be saved.

    22. Yea, the Pope remits the souls in Purgatory no penalty which they, according to the canons, would have had to pay in this life.

    23. If to anybody complete remission of all penalties may be granted, it is certain that it is granted only to those most approaching perfection, that is, to very few.

    24. Therefore the multitude is misled by the boastful promise of the paid penalty, whereby no manner of distinction is made.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)
    25. The same power that the Pope has over Purgatory, such has also every bishop in his diocese, and every curate in his parish.

    26. The Pope acts most rightly in granting remission to souls, not by the power of the keys – which in Purgatory he does not possess – but by way of intercession.

    27. They preach vanity who say that the soul flies out of Purgatory as soon as the money thrown into the chest rattles.

    28. What is sure, is, that as soon as the penny rattles in the chest, gain and avarice are on the way of increase; but the intercession of the church depends only on the will of God Himself.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)
    29. And who knows, too, whether all those souls in Purgatory wish to be redeemed, as it is said to have happened with St. Severinus and St. Paschalis.

    30. Nobody is sure of having repented sincerely enough; much less can he be sure of having received perfect remission of sins.

    31. Seldom even as he who has sincere repentance, is he who really gains indulgence; that is to say, most seldom to be found.

    32. On the way to eternal damnation are they and their teachers, who believe that they are sure of their salvation through indulgences.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)
    33. Beware well of those who say, the Pope’s pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to God.

    34. For the forgiveness contained in these pardons has reference only to the penalties of sacramental atonement which were appointed by men.

    35. He preaches like a heathen who teaches that those who will deliver souls out of Purgatory or buy indulgences do not need repentance and contrition.

    36. Every Christian who feels sincere repentance and woe on account of his sins, has perfect remission of pain and guilt even without letters of indulgence.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)
    37. Every true Christian, be he still alive or already dead, partaketh in all benefits of Christ and of the Church given him by God, even without letters of indulgence.

    38. Yet is the Pope’s absolution and dispensation by no means to be contemned, since it is, as I have said, a declaration of the Divine Absolution.

    39. It is exceedingly difficult, even for the most subtle theologists, to praise at the same time before the people the great wealth of indulgence and the truth of utter contrition.

    40. True repentance and contrition seek and love punishment; while rich indulgence absolves from it, and causes men to hate it, or at least gives them occasion to do so.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    41. The Pope’s indulgence ought to be proclaimed with all precaution, lest the people should mistakenly believe it of more value than all other works of charity.

    42. Christians should be taught, it is not the Pope’s opinion that the buying of indulgence is in any way comparable to works of charity.

    43. Christians should be taught, he who gives to the poor, or lends to a needy man, does better than buying indulgence.

    44. For, by the exercise of charity, charity increases and man grows better, while by means of indulgence, he does not become better, but only freer from punishment.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    45. Christians should be taught, he who sees his neighbor in distress, and, nevertheless, buys indulgence, is not partaking in the Pope’s pardons, but in the anger of God.

    46. Christians should be taught, unless they are rich enough, it is their duty to keep what is necessary for the use of their households, and by no means to throw it away on indulgences.

    47. Christians should be taught, the buying of indulgences is optional and not commanded.

    48. Christians should be taught, the Pope, in selling pardons, has more want and more desire of a devout prayer for himself than of the money.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    49. Christians should be taught, the Pope’s pardons are useful as far as one does not put confidence in them, but on the contrary most dangerous, if through them one loses the fear of God.

    50. Christians should be taught, if the Pope knew the ways and doings of the preachers of indulgences, he would prefer that St. Peter’s Minster should be burnt to ashes, rather than that it should be built up of the skin, flesh, and bones of his lambs.

    51. Christians should be taught, the Pope, as it is his bounden duty to do, is indeed also willing to give of his own money – and should St. Peter’s be sold thereto – to those from whom the preachers of indulgences do most extort money.

    52. It is a vain and false thing to hope to be saved through indulgences, though the commissary – nay, the Pope himself – was to pledge his own soul therefore.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    53. Those who, on account of a sermon concerning indulgences in one church, condemn the word of God to silence in the others, are enemies of Christ and of the Pope.

    54. Wrong is done to the word of God if one in the same sermon spends as much or more time on indulgences as on the word of the Gospel.

    55. The opinion of the Pope cannot be otherwise than this:- If an indulgence – which is the lowest thing – be celebrated with one bell, one procession and ceremonies, then the Gospel – which is the highest thing – must be celebrated with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, and a hundred ceremonies.

    56. The treasures of the Church, whence the Pope grants his dispensation are neither sufficiently named nor known among the community of Christ.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    57. It is manifest that they are not temporal treasures, for the latter are not lightly spent, but rather gathered by many of the preachers.

    58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and of the saints, for these, without the Pope’s aid, work always grace to the inner man, cross, death, and hell to the other man.

    59. St. Lawrence called the poor of the community the treasures of the community and of the Church, but he understood the word according to the use in his time.

    60. We affirm without pertness that the keys of the Church, bestowed through the merit of Christ, are this treasure.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    61. For it is clear that the Pope’s power is sufficient for the remission of penalties and forgiveness in the reserved cases.

    62. The right and true treasure of the Church is the most Holy Gospel of the glory and grace of God.

    63. This treasure, however, is deservedly most hateful, for it makes the first to be last.

    64. While the treasure of indulgence is deservedly most agreeable, for it makes the last to be first.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)
    65. Therefore, the treasures of the Gospel are nets, with which, in times of yore, one fished for the men of Mammon.

    66. But the treasures of indulgence are nets, with which now-a-days one fishes for the Mammon of men.

    67. Those indulgences, which the preachers proclaim to be great mercies, are indeed great mercies, forasmuch as they promote gain.

    68. And yet they are of the smallest compared to the grace of God and to the devotion of the Cross.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    69. Bishops and curates ought to mark with eyes and ears, that the commissaries of apostolical (that is, Popish) pardons are received with all reverence.

    70. But they ought still more to mark with eyes and ears, that these commissaries do not preach their own fancies instead of what the Pope has commanded.

    71. He who speaks against the truth of apostolical pardons, be anathema and cursed.

    72. But blessed be he who is on his guard against the preacher’s of pardons naughty and impudent words.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    73. As the Pope justly disgraces and excommunicates those who use any kind of contrivance to do damage to the traffic in indulgences.

    74. Much more it is his intention to disgrace and excommunicate those who, under the pretext of indulgences, use contrivance to do damage to holy love and truth.

    75. To think that the Popish pardons have power to absolve a man even if – to utter an impossibility – he had violated the Mother of God, is madness.

    76. We assert on the contrary that the Popish pardon cannot take away the least of daily sins, as regards the guilt of it.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    77. To say that St. Peter, if he were now Pope, could show no greater mercies, is blasphemy against St. Peter and the Pope.

    78. We assert on the contrary that both this and every other Pope has greater mercies to show: namely, the Gospel, spiritual powers, gifts of healing, etc. (1.Cor.XII).

    79. He who says that the cross with the Pope’s arms, solemnly set on high, has as much power as the Cross of Christ, blasphemes God.

    80. Those bishops, curates, and theologists, who allow such speeches to be uttered among the people, will have one day to answer for it.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    81. Such impudent sermons concerning indulgences make it difficult even for learned men to protect the Pope’s honor and dignity against the calumnies, or at all events against the searching questions, of the laymen.

    82. As for instance: – Why does not the Pope deliver all souls at the same time out of Purgatory for the sake of most holy love and on account of the bitterest distress of those souls – this being the most imperative of all motives, – while he saves an infinite number of souls for the sake of that most miserable thing money, to be spent on St. Peter’s Minster: – this being the very slightest of motives?

    83. Or again: – Why do masses for the dead continue, and why does not the Pope return or permit to be withdrawn the funds which were established for the sake of the dead, since it is now wrong to pray for those who are already saved?

    84. Again: – What is this new holiness of God and the Pope that, for money’s sake, they permit the wicked and the enemy of God to save a pious soul, faithful to God, and yet will not save that pious and beloved soul without payment, out of love, and on account of its great distress?

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    85. Again: – Why is it that the canons of penance, long abrogated and dead in themselves, because they are not used, are yet still paid for with money through the granting of pardons, as if they were still in force and alive?

    86. Again: – Why does not the Pope build St. Peter’s Minster with his own money – since his riches are now more ample than those of Crassus, – rather than with the money of poor Christians?

    87. Again: -Why does the Pope remit or give to those who, through perfect penitence, have already a right to plenary remission and pardon?

    88. Again: – What greater good could the Church receive, than if the Pope presented this remission and pardon a hundred times a day to every believer, instead of but once, as he does now?

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    89. If the Pope seeks by his pardon the salvation of souls, rather than money, why does he annul letters of indulgence granted long ago, and declare them out of force, though they are still in force?

    90. To repress these very telling questions of the laymen by force, and not to solve them by telling the truth, is to expose the Church and the Pope to the enemy’s ridicule and to make Christian people unhappy.

    91. Therefore, if pardons were preached according to the Pope’s intention and opinion, all these objections would be easily answered, nay, they never had occurred.

    92. Away then with all those prophets who say to the community of Christ, “Peace, peace”, and there is no peace.

    (Top of Martin Luther 95 Theses)

    93. But blessed be all those prophets who say to the community of Christ, “The cross, the cross,” and there is no cross.

    94. Christians should be exhorted to endeavor to follow Christ their Head through Cross, Death, and Hell,

    95. And thus hope with confidence to enter Heaven through many miseries, rather than in false security.

  5. The Roman Catholic Church has done to Christianity what the Pharisees did to first century Judaism, for which Jesus condemned them.

  6. Not that I agree with everything Luther said, But the Catholic Church and the worship of the papacy had gone completely off the rails.

  7. What Cato said. That’s how it is. Personal. Just like when you die – you make the trip alone.

    BTW, people were Baptized long before Catholicism came along.

    Not Hyperbole to say the Baptist faith is the oldest Christian faith.

  8. You do all know that today was the day that Martin Luther nailed his 95 thesis to the wall of the church in Wittenberg?

  9. Martin Luther had no intention of dividing the catholic (universal) church. He just translated scripture.

  10. Bergoglio, like all Communists, is just another closet capitalist.
    MPS wins with his “Marty’s 95 Life Hacks” list! 😉

  11. What did Jesus come to earth to do? Die? If all he needed to do was shed his blood why didn’t His Father allow Him to die during the decree of Herod to kill all children below the age of 1? His Father saved him and sent Mary and Joseph to Egypt. Mt 2:13

    If all he had to do was die why after preaching in Nazareth didn’t he allow the people to throw him off the brow of the hill, instead he passed through their midst and went away. Lk 4:29

    Jesus became incarnate to establish a church and he established that church in Mt 16: 13-19

    From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised..” Mt 16:21
    Luke 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to me…
    Mt 28:18-20 Go therefore….teaching them all that I have commanded you

    Can you love the king and hate his kingdom?
    Me and Jesus, yes, Me and Church building his kingdom, yes.

    Do I agree with everything the Vicar of Christ on earth says, no I do not, but I also don’t agree with everything Peter said and neither did Jesus. Get behind me Satan Mt 16:23. Jesus uses imperfect souls on earth to build the kingdom.

    I am Roman Catholic for one reason, it is the truth.

  12. Thank you Frank, I was just going to tell all these protestant heretics to fuck off but your testimony seems more legit and cromulent.

    Lets roll with that.

  13. I had a nice little rant i was posting here but decided not to. One thing i’ve learned is not to argue with those who think they are right.

  14. No religion got on a cross to bleed and die, then be resurrected for me – Only my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
    I will not forsake the assembly, (Hebrews 10:25) but, the assembly must believe in One mediator between God and man, Christ.
    1 Timothy 2:5-6. By the way, tithes and offerings are required based soley on a relationship with God. Malachi 3:8-12. Even if you’re a Cornelius (Acts 10), you may be blessed doing good works and giving offering BUT, you are still personally estranged from the True and Living God.

  15. The pope said nothing that hasn’t already been said many times by Rome, and (if memory serves) is explicitly condemned as anathema – cursed – by the Council of Trent, which is still very much in force. That alone puts the lie to all this “separated brethren” nonsense.

  16. Church = any body of believers in Christ. Not a building. Many a modern man has lost sight of that.

    The Bible itself is the truth. Whether we grok it or not. We’ll know for sure once we get there.

    I’m on board. He died for payment of my sins past, present, ans future. He defeated death by rising again.

    I’m out.

  17. The Roman Catholic Church has been trying to sew up the veil that was torn the night Christ died. The reason Christ wasn’t killed by Herod’s decree was because we needed a perfect sacrifice. One that lived like us and was sinless…..also, God the Father appointed His time to die. Yes, Jesus did establish a church, one purchased by His blood. A church purified by His perfect sacrifice. Unfortunately, Rome sees that sacrifice as something to be added to. Jesus came to die and said “It Is Finished”…..there is no “but” on the end of that. The truth is NOT found in the RCC. Confusion is. It’s why most of you loathe the current pope……somehing else not found in scripture. Aaron, you will be prescribed some Hail Mary’s by your priest for that!

    Here’s a perfect and damning example of the confusion:

    Here’s another:

  18. Going away from the Church means going away from grace-giving sacraments. I need all I can get. HDO tomorrow, be there.

  19. I understand the sentiments posted here, but I am converting to Catholicism for one reason. I have never had such a close personal relationship with God as I do now in the church. It is not impossible without church, but very hard.

  20. Christianity is supremely simple. Look to the Scriptures to inform you, not any man (Pope, Luther or anyone) They are false prophets and will deceive many.

  21. The Catholic church and I agree on what “faith” is.

    They claim faith must be transmitted to you through a “specially trained” agent of an entity who “Has the TRUTH.” Only with the Bible translated to you through these special people can you come to understand God’s truth and Jesus’ saving grace.

    I declare shenanigans on the “Catholic Church” and remind you that while Jesus spent time with his disciples, who were “deputized” to spread His message of Love and Grace, He interacted and healed people on a 1-1 basis and never said there needed to be ticket-sellers/travel agents to Heaven.

    Believe what you will, but the early history of the Catholic church, with it’s Roman origins and human power grabbing leave me a little wary.

    And there is absolutely no credence to Mary as being involved any more than as the human vessel chosen for the human mother of God’s one and only unique Son.

    The Bible ends with a warning: Revelation 22:17-21 (NKJV)

    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
    18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
    19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
    21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

  22. Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles (that’s us) said the ultimate good news, the core of the saving Gospel, is Christ in the believer, the hope of glory.

    By denying the direct personal relationship, Rome denies this fact and hope. It denies Christ.

  23. I find it Absurd and insulting, that this Human thinks He Himself can have a better relationship with God than I ! He’s telling Catholics in effect they need him to get to Heaven and even throws in that Communion is needed, throwing any non Catholic under the bus.
    The Pope is walking a path that God didn’t lay !!!

  24. Final exam test questions and answers. Gave is a verb, you must do something according to Jesus.

    Matthew 25:35-40English Standard Version (ESV)

    35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

  25. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

    And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, …

    For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; …

  26. Remember when Jesus said that it was necessary to have a big bureaucratic apparatus in place in order to have a relationship with him and The Father?

    Me neither.

  27. THe Scriptures also say that your works are as filthy rags. It is faith that drives you to do good works. And faith is what? Given as a free gift of Grace……so that what?……no man may boast. Rest in Jesus my friend. Not what you do. Not the fact that you attended mass, or said this or prayed that. When I stand before the judgment seat, my only plea will be Jesus Christ died for me.

    The Church fathers knew nothing about what this RCC has become. If any “body” thinks highly of itself, it is the RCC.

  28. Funny how the rulers of the Catholic Church don’t want you to read your bible. They expect you to keep it on the coffee table and they’ll interpret for you.
    Why do the Catholics (which I was raised and left) eliminate an original commandment?

  29. That Christ died for me is every Catholic’s plea.

    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

  30. The Catholic Church preserves the Word.

    This is so disingenuous for BFH to post that headline.

    Catholics are probably the only denomination that don’t require that you donate to attend. Ever if you are so inclined.

    Sure we currently have a commie as the head. All that does is demonstrate the Church’s ability to preserve the Word under the most dire of circumstance.

    And to quote AB. “We get the Pope we deserve”

  31. Yes…..but you sacrifice him over and over again in your mass…….so His death was not a perfect sacrifice. It’s not sufficient.

    For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, – 1 Peter 3:18

    27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
    28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
    1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.
    2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?
    3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
    4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
    5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;
    6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.
    7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'”
    8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law),
    9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.
    10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
    11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
    12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
    13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
    14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. – Hebrews 9:27—10:14

  32. It is God who preserves His word and it was His from the beginning. Early Christians used many of the same books we have in our Scriptures today.

    LOL…..JPM……my church doesn’t require donations to attend.

    And what about Rome’s past and indulgences……forgetful much?

    And the head of the Church is Jesus Christ…..not some earthly man.

    And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. – Colossians 1:18

    Rome makes the pope preeminent……just look at the worship of him.

  33. Lead Salad,
    I was making those same arguments just a few years ago. It became tiresome kicking against almost two thousand years of doctrine! When I finally found someone who could explain it to me, it started making sense. There is so much fiction out there. Our Lord is not repeatedly sacrificed. The Most Holy Sacrifice is re-presented at mass. Of course it does not happen again. How absurd. “Do this in memory of Me.” So we do it.
    Donations are never required to attend. This is true.
    No one worships the Pope. Another absurdity.
    And now I must take you to task for the most egregious error you made when you stated that Our Lord is “not some earthly man.” He was One Person with two natures, fully divine and fully human, like us in all ways except sin. This is the key to understanding how His death at Calvary paid for our sins. He suffered as a Human to pay the price for all of our offenses against God. Those sins against an Infinite Being are infinite. We cannot pay an infinite price because we are finite. It would take One Person with two natures to suffer both humanly and infinitely for all the sins committed. Whoever believes this will attend mass – the re-presentation of the Most Holy Sacrifice – with joyful thanksgiving.
    I hope and pray you receive this with an open heart.

  34. As usual, I see a terrible error as soon as I post. Our Lord IS (not “was”) One Person, and I’ll add that He is with us today, in His Glorified Body , present in the Holy Eucharist. Today is All Saints’ Day, a Holy Day of Obligation. We remember them and hope to join them one day.

  35. And then we have John 6
    Which Protestants will spend hours tying themselves and the Word into knots to avoid the plain words of scripture.
    6:53 Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you.
    6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

  36. The devil said, “Did God really say…?”

    Who changed God’s message to support their “system” of oppression, institution, and justification of existence for 1300 years?

    Just askin.

  37. Shrimp…..
    You were kicking against 2000 years of wrong doctrine. The RCC calls it a bloodless sacrifice and your church has changed the way it carries out the mass for years. Before the Reformation, they didn’t allow commoners to partake in the cup. It’s funny how Roman Catholics so very quickly forget their history. Let’s discuss the Pornocracy or the many times there has been more than one pope.
    I said “some” man, meaning not just an ordinary man. Of course I believe he was God AND Man. That is one doctrine the we do agree on.
    If you think members of your church don’t worship the pope, I’ve got some videos for you to watch.

    And there you go with His body being present in the Eucharist. That my friend my friend is a division many have died over. Bloody Mary, a good Roman Catholic, burned many a Protestant at the stake for saying that they abhor the mass. You say it’s not a sacrifice, yet when you actually read catholic tradition, it says it’s a sacrifice. So which is it. Your church does nothing but beget confusion.

    Frank. I’ve never tied myself in knots over that verse. Jesus also said “I am the vine” and “a door”. Not only that, Jesus said all this before His once for all earthly sacrifice……sooooo……he sacrificed Himself to his apostles BEFORE He died on the cross? As Jesus has done frequently in this Gospel, he is speaking in terms of physical items in this world to teach about spiritual realities. Also, if you read later in John AFTER the last supper and Jesus’ dissertation in the upper room…..”I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father. – John 16:25. Also, tie yourself in knot over Paul calling it bread multiple times in Corinthians. The fact of the matter is, your church believes Christ’s sacrifice is not sufficient and a holy Roman father must call Him down daily to do it all over again in a “bloodless sacrifice”. I pray God will open your eyes to this.


  38. Lead,
    Your Christian ancestors before the 16th century were Catholic. They believed in the Real Presence, went to mass, received graces from the sacraments, and today I bet they are praying for you, as I hope mine are praying for me. I’ll let you have the last word.

  39. Lead,
    I go to mass regularly where the cup isn’t offered, Jesus is fully present, body blood, soul and divinity in either species not sure why that matters.
    RE John 6, you just might have a case except for:
    While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Mt 26:26-28; cf. Mk 14:22-24, Lk 22:17-20, 1 Cor 11:23-25)

    I would like to see some video of people worshiping pope Francis please help me out with a few.

    Church confusion is defined by 30,000+ separate protestant Christian religions in the US. The Catholic Church didn’t start that. The protestant “reformation did”

    Peace to you brother.

  40. ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH, a man who personally knew the Apostles:
    “I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”
    -“Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

    To know Christian history is to discover the Catholic Church

  41. The more cultic a belief is the more the adherents will defend it.

    In the end Jesus is building mansions of grace for individuals, and not “physical church” members who argue and defend positions. He has a link to his church spiritually and not with any mystical blood/body. Communion is an act of symbolic remembrance of Grace. The Jews of Jesus’ day would have been sickened had the idea of cannibalizing a person, let alone God.

    If you want to consider cannibalization in Scripture go to Genesis 6 and read about the giants/nephillim.

    A good search of the history between Ad 33 and Ad 300 will find that the church was doing okay as it was becoming a hybrid of Judaism/Christianity with much thought/discussion from the early church fathers who were not actually Catholics. It wasn’t until Constantine (and his mother) sought out what was going on did we begin to get “creeds/doctrines” because they had to come up with who is and isn’t a Christian. (simple thoughts)

    The Apostles left behind a simple book you all ought to search called “Didache” (Di’dakay). Read how simple their ideas of baptism are and what Communion rally is.

    They also bought into the idea of holy relics which could imbue the possessors with magical and spiritual powers. Naturally the Emperor had to a bureaucracy to run things and the first idea of Peter being a pebble was born.

    I don’t want to offend people or be drawn into a fight but take a weekend and actually read a good translation (non-vulgate origin) of the Bible, discover the symmetry of God’s Word (has a beginning, an end, and your story is in the middle), and His love for His creation – it is simple straightforward and YOU DON’T need a travel agent (other than the Holy Spirit) to see it.

    If you think I am being mean for posting this, then so be it and I will not post again on IOTW (not soliciting pats on the back or encouragement – my ego is not on the website).

  42. Hans, it takes a lot to offend anybody on IOTW. And your post isn’t derogatory or mean by any stretch.
    Interpretation of scripture isn’t going to be finally and formally resolved on this website I know that for sure.

    Blessings to you

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