JTN: Electric vehicle (EV) sales are up, but that may come with unintended—if not lethal—consequences. EVs pose many problems that are not well-known including potentially dangerous conditions in commercial parking garages and the fire risks associated with lithium-ion batteries used by EV’s.
Electric vehicles are becoming more prevalent, and being scrutinized for their potential dangers, even when they are not being driven. In July of this year a cargo ship caught fire off the Netherlands’ coast after 3,500 new vehicles caught fire while in transport. One crew member was killed, and investigators said “the fire started in the battery of an electric car.”
Flammability aside, EVs elicit concerns because of just how heavy they are compared to traditional internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles. Many older parking garages were simply not built with the weights of modern cars in mind, let alone EVs. The lithium-ion batteries that power new EVs account for a large portion of the weight discrepancy with traditional cars. For example, according to automotive trade journal Jobber News, “An electric vehicle can weigh much more than its internal combustion engine counterpart — the Ford F-150 Lightning can weigh 2,000-3,000 pounds more than the ICE version.” more
There were concerns when cars first began driving on the roads. Horse owners rightfully worried as did others. But then the worthless government was NOT subsidizing or FORCING everyone to purchase cars, nor were they banning the production of hay/feed for the horses. They just let the market do its thing (well yeah, that whole protect the House of Saud treaty crap and other moves to keep Rockefeller filthy rich…but other than that)…
there are ev graveyards full crap and just like those alien looking windmills dotting the beautiful skyline/shoreline, they are NOT biodegradable, they’re all actually very toxic to the environment
To your point MrLiberty, A new product is made to fill an existing market need and suceeds or fails depending on how well it fufills the needs of the market.
With EVs they made the product first, then had to go out and create the maket for it. Exactly backwards! Not a model of sucess!
nunyo bidness – EVs can never be included in landfill unless the batteries are removed. One more thing that adds to the cost.
33kW is the equivilent of 1 gallon of gas.
1 gallon of gasoline weighs 6.1Lbs
A 100kW lithium battery weighs in at something like 1200Lbs and goes for about 300 miles.
At 40 mpg (typical small car today) it requires 7.5 gallons of gas or 45.75LBs
That means that most of the horsepower in an EV is required to accelerate all that batttery weight… also requiring heavy duty brakes to stop all that weight. Also required are heavy duty tires, heavy duty suspension and a heavier structure to keep it all together… all to move 1 or 2 people.
Doesn’t sound like a very efficient solution to me!
Something to consider: When it comes to pollution, how many million ICE cars does it take to equal the pollution of one nasty EV fire?
Home owners get a waiver attached for structure fires if they’re electric car owners; Or, higher HO premiums.
It would interesting to see just how many electric cars end up burning the house down.
Replacement cost of our home just went up nearly 50k this year, so it’s getting expensive to own in more ways that a high interest rate mortgage.
All part of the plan, comrades.
Why do they call them electric vehicles when everything that uses batteries is called battery powered? Should it be BP or BV.
Not a New concept, snake oil cures everything don’t you know?
https://youtu.be/d_SpHvBfzrw?si=0jYbd7T_auS_SGVf
AJ – Maintenance question: For EVs, how many miles between snake oil changes?
😆
TRF – The more important maintenance is replacing the unicorn fart generator.
Government corrects an imaginary, unrealistic Problem (use of fossil fuels) by creating a more costly, greater Problem (wind & solar elec. Power and EV vehicles).
That’s what Government does.
Government imagines the non-existent problem, fixes it with a greater more costly and damaging REAL problem. To correct the greater REAL problem they need to raise taxes, hire new government employees to fix their greater REAL problem with another greatest Real Problem.
Then more employees, more taxes and then solve the Real greatest problem they created with an unsolvable Fix.
The cycle repeats.
The greatest concern, toxicity and damage facing the United States is Government.
It never goes away regardless of the toxicity levels or increased damage it creates for its citizens.
Chumlee SUNDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER 2023, 10:51 AT 10:51 AM
“Home owners get a waiver attached for structure fires if they’re electric car owners; Or, higher HO premiums.
It would interesting to see just how many electric cars end up burning the house down.”
…speaking as a retired FF, I saw many a house fire that started in an ICE vehicle in the attached or (worse) tuck-under garage. As a result, in my first house that came with a tuck-under garage my wife thought I was insane because I refused to put the car in it and I installed a shed well away from the house to store gasoline powered tools, propane, and welding gases in, and bought a rechargeable mower before that was hip that predated lithium and used a motorcycle lead/acid battery instead (only a quarter acre, made sense then).
…that said, we were usually able to stop these types of fires at the garage unless someone didn’t fire stop the attic properly, removed the fire stops, or no one was home. Smoke damage was sometimes pretty bad elsewhere, and smoke killed, but mostly the rest of the house would not have flame impingement if we did our jobs properly.
ICE vehicles didn’t do crap like THIS;
https://youtu.be/en3PuyWQ_7g?si=97F3QGwJSSqmKLCe
…and much smaller batteries can still cause huge problems. Ask this school if they’re going to change their rechargeable battery policies kinda soon…
https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/butler-county/west-chester/lithium-battery-likely-cause-of-lakota-school-fire-hopewell-building-remains-closed
…and as someone who’s worked with industrial battery vehicles for 30 years I can tell you that even in an environment where they make limited sense because they’re indoors, used by trained people, serviced by trained people, and never far from their charging stations, there’s still issues with abrupt battery failures and chrager failures and the like, and they are prety expensive to maintain because you can’t get parts just anywhere and the batteries only last about 5 years and are VERY specific in shape and weight to the vehicle as they are a large part of its handling and maneuverability because they are so heavy; and if the battery OEM gets tired of making your particular battery configuration and cells, you are SOL as far as being able to continue using the vehicle.
Also, NONE of my industrial vehicles, be they autonomous material handlers or operator driven forklifts have LITHIUM batteries, they are all lead/acid. We experimented with different batteries over the years, lithium, NiMH, NiCd, all kinds of different things, all very expensive, but none that made sense like lead acid for day-in, day-out constant use where reliability was critical and charging times measured in hours not days.
And for myself I would not get a battery vehicle for a number of safety and economic reasons we’ve all talked about before, but mostly because the tech makes no sense for how I use cars. I drive 80 miles to and from work every day in all weather and in darkness in the early AM, then use the car more after I get home for shopping, for dinner, and for family fun times. It might sit for 6 hours before its time to do it again. And all my life I’ve had to use cars on the spur of the moment for unplanned things too. As a young man for going out at zero dark to get in trouble with friends, as a slightly older man to respond to emergency calls to the firehouse, as a somewhat older man making 3AM runs to hospitals with a sick child or injured wife, and even now I may be invited back to my 40 mile away factory in the evening or night when the shift guys have an especially bad problem or go cross town to have to rescue my broken down SIL or lost mother.
And I need a vehicle to be INSTANTLY available for any and all of this, and more.
That vehicle is NOT a battery vehicle. They are simply not capable of being used the way I use vehicles even if you ignore all the OTHER impracticality, trouble, expense, and danger they inevitabily are freighted with.
And I suspect I am not unique in that.
…perhaps one day someone will make a practical fuel cell or amazing new battery that will do all that and be affordable as well. Who knows.
I only know that TODAY is not that day.
No battery vehicle for me.
But your milage may vary…
“…perhaps one day someone will make a practical fuel cell or amazing new battery that will do all that and be affordable as well. Who knows.
I only know that TODAY is not that day.”
SNS you post such excellent advice most of the time but you are not up to date on current tech of electric vehicles. The tech has changed drastically. Chevy Bolt was one of the first afordable vehicles in 2016. There were 17 fires with them. Very dangerous, very damaging. They recalled all their batteries in 2019 and since then there has not been a single Chevy Bolt fire.
Tesla vehicles have way way less fires than are currently covered by the media. No one here links to the exact statistic here because it wouldn’t fit the current predjudices here. It’s actually like 25 fires total for Tesla the last 3 years. When you see the statits they always lump them in with the hybrids which have 1600 to 2500 fires PER YEAR.
You plug the electric car in at night. If you run a 425 mile range Tesla all the way down, it takes about 20 hours to fully charge (18 miles per hour with a 40 amp plug) If you can’t do it it takes less than 30 minutes at a super charger. If you drive 160 miles a day you are talking 9 hours for a full charge. 10 oclock to 6 oclock but you still unplug it and run to the hospital anytime.
If I made decisions based on the uninformed information here I would be poor indeed.
It costs about 6 bucks to add 220 miles of range to an EV. My 425 hp Mercedes used to cost $80 to fill up for a range similar to that back when fuel was high. It’s a big savings.
jpm SUNDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER 2023, 13:25 AT 1:25 PM
…I respect what you’re saying and have said ny experience is with industrial and not passenger vehicles, and given that both my car mechanic days and firefighter days ended before batter vehicles began I cannot claim to be an exoert on them from either standpoint. I DO know from firefighters that are still active that extinguishing an EV fire that involves the battery IS much more consuming of both time and water than an ICE vehicle is and that “fire out” is nowhere near as certain, but having previously participated an many, MANY ICE car fires I can tell you that ANY car can burn, which is why I wouldn’t host either under a roof where Im sleeping.
But EVs when they do burn, in addition to being difficult to extinguish with certainty, also do much more damage as they burn hotter and are also more difficult to remove as it is their nature to be heavier. Also, there were times we would roll an ICE vehicle out of a garage unpowered to clear exposures, and this isn’t so easy with a battery vehicle as this can actually make things worse by generating power when rolling them. There are very specific ways EVs are supposed to be rolled, and most involve it being possible to power them up. And at EV wrecks even without fire it is more difficult to be sure they are deactivated if the driver is in place and incapacitated, as is not at all unusual. I can tell if an ICE vehicle is running and have several ways to kill it for sure; with an EV, not so much.
https://youtu.be/1bQO41G9sSo?si=19R-lk4933macxM8&t=45s
…all that said, my other point was “affordable”. My house doesn’t have an electical service to support a supercharger, pretty common for older houses, and it would be quite expensive to upgrade even before purchasing the actual charger. And while newer tech may have given the vehicles you cite greater range and faster charging, there may be issues as the batteries age as older batteries tend to charge less and charge longer as well as lose range if you’re using high draw appliances like heaters, defoggers, and wipers (I live in the Midwest), but mainly the vehicles you cite are Teslas, which -correct me if I’m wrong – are more expensive to purchase if you want them to have longer ranges, and out of the typical purchaser’s price range.
…as I said though, YMMV. EVs may be ideal for some people, sounds like they are for you, and God bless anyone who wants, can use, and can afford one. I have no problem with free market purchases of ANY car.
I just have a problem with them being forced on the masses before the infrastructure exists and ALL of the vehicles have great ranges and low price tags without subsidies. (Infrastructure
needs to include charging AND municipal servise like firefighting because manpower and copius amounts of potable water ain’t free, and neither is the tow truck or the road repairs or the water shuttle you need to set up to GET the copius amonts of water to the higway fire). EVs might be stellar performers for folks living in steadily moderate climates and flat lands and with jobs and groceies nearby, but for those of us living up hills and far from both, they’re not particularly accessible or affordable.
Both are OK in my view. I just think we should be able to agree they aren’t for everyone yet, and so government mandates even in the form of CAFE standards shouldn’t be used to force everyone to pretend like they ARE.
@jpm
Combustibility isn’t the only issue, though you bring up a good point. Far less fires than one might think although when they do go up, they are usually fairly dramatic and take someone, something or both with it. Witness the MV Fremantle Highway. Took 3500 cars, a ship and a guy with it. No, my guess is you wouldn’t have given an EV a second look 10-15 yrs ago when they were a novelty and a niche product appealing only to the true believers. The green mandates sweetened by subsidies (which need to go, btw) and many are falling for it. The fact remains, they are hard on carbon (not a climate cultist so it matters not a whit to me) and delusionally displace the carbon cost elsewhere and use a ludicrous amount during the manufacturing process. Try processing 500,000 lbs of lithium ore per 1,000 lbs of battery without getting your hair a little carbon mussed. We are not on a green power grid nor are we ever likely to be. So it’s all just bedazzling bullshit except for the coming mandates which appear to have some questionable motives behind them. Oil is the second most common liquid on the planet. We are awash in it. There is no reason on Earth to abandon our current lifestyle save for the whims of our “betters” who would love the measure of control that comes with an EV-borne populace. You’re $6/220mi charge ain’t worth jack if there’s no charging station at mm 220 or you have to wait three hours before the other peeps, who got there before you, get their charge or the govt says you’ve traveled enough that day and remotely kills your chariot. Good luck during that hurricane evac. EVs? You’re welcome to them but include me out. That includes taxpayer subsidies. Let’s see if they can make it on their own without the carrot and stick (mfr mandates and subsidies). I am doubtful, and, coming full circle, they can return to being a niche product for climate cultists. Perhaps you’ll consider an update post when your battery comes due for replacement. $10-20k? Yeef, that’s a lot of miles per Mercedes.
SNS was right, today is not that day nor will we here likely live long enough to see that day.
SNS
They make a blanket to cover EV’s that firetrucks can carry that smother the oxygen and the fire goes out. Then they spray water to cool. The car goes on the wrecker with the blanket to the yard. It appears it works very well.
You don’t install superchargers at your house. You would go to the super charger if you need a qucik charge. I think Tesla has a 70 amp plug and charger which would deliver 36 miles an hour for their 425 mile range models. My point was that the tech is way improved and there is a lot of miss information about the useability and reliability of EV’s and in particuler TESLA. Although the $28,000 Chevy Bolt is a pretty reliable deal
So the weight of an electric F-150 is 1 to 1.5 tons greater than its counterpart ICE model? Outside the fire risk, I wonder the effect this greatly increased weight has on accident injury/death for both the occupants as well as the impactee.
Ghost I agree we are awash in oil. Tesla has 50,000 charging stations world wide, 30,000 in the US. The other major manufacturing companies have practically NOTHING.
I resent the tax payer subsidies. Never the less, Tesla has an excellent product. They are going to produce a $25,000 model in 2025. The subsidy is $7,500 and in Texas it’s an additional $2500 from the state. Then you don’t have to buy gas. Again batteries are dropping is price drastically. A lot of your info on replacing them has changed. Currently it is $16,000 to swap out a Tesla battery on the model 3 but it is expected to be $6000 in 3 years. That’s a lot but the Model 3 (standard range) LFP batteries are supposed to last 2,000,000 miles.
Biden has his 36 billion money cannon aimed at Ford GM and Stelantas but Tesla customers are getting almost all of that
My 2023 Chevy Bolt with a 250 mile range battery weighs less than my previously owned $125,000 Mercedes 4 door E63 AMG.
It depends on the vehicle but most of the Tesla sedans weigh about 3,000 lbs more or less and are not unlike the Mercedes of the same size.
I know the 9,0000 Hummer is a joke. GM sold 3 this year I think.
It all depends on what you need though and what works
btw I didn’t pay anywhere NEAR $125,000 for my used Mercedes. I bought it at the time because rich people will discount the hell out of their used vehicle to sink another $125,000 for the latest model
@jpm
Somewhere around 145,000 gas stations in the US. So, SOL if you don’t have a Tesla? Even so, that’s a pretty thin spread of stations esp when you think of the fact that it’s not in and out in 10 min. (100+ pumps at Buc-ees + bbq). Adapters? Whatevs, I see no earthly reason for these vehicles at this juncture. Even if you are a carbon nut, God help you, these are not economical of carbon in their use or manufacture. This is not the tech we’ve been waiting for and I don’t accept the Carbon! premise it’s being offered up on.
The glaring question in adopting battery powered personal transportation is this: where are all the major new electrical power generating stations being built and how are they powered?
There aren’t any. Enviros say ‘no nukes’, have for decades, ‘breach the dams’, have for decades
In every energy exchange there is loss.
If the generation of your Kv is by combustion you are responsible for that carbon including the losses in four conversions.
Battery powered personal transportation remains a massive virtue signaling fraud on the public, eagerly embraced by shortsighted or thoughtless persons with apparently limited ability to evaluate physical data.
The underlying purpose of the battery powered car jazz is to eliminate personal transportation entirely among the greatest majority of the population. The upper slice and government will retain such privilege, most will not.
“Model 3 (standard range) LFP batteries are supposed to last 2,000,000 miles.”
Hogwash! That’s over 6000 discharge cycles. These batteries don’t get over 1500 cycles currently, and that’s in an optimal environment.
800 to 1200 cycles and 8 to 12 years is the lifetime for these batteries. In the real world. Or 250k to 350k miles. TOPS.
Then figure in degradation, at the low end, 800 cycles, these batteries won’t hold more than 80% of their original range. When you’re encouraged to charge at 20% and don’t charge over 80%, the 40% loss of range added to the 20% depleted range, you’re driving a car with only 40% of it’s advertised range from new. Charge every 130 miles or get a new battery is your choice.
But my hangup on EVs is when you want to actually use a car to haul stuff. That’s where the EV dream completely falls apart. Wanna haul your boat 600 miles to a lake? Enjoy stopping at least 4 times along the way to jam more magic pixies into the battery, if you’re lucky enough to find a place to do it in the woods by the cabin along the lake. Might have to spend a few nights on the road just to get there, nevermind coming back. Whole vacay RUINT.
https://www.torquenews.com/1/lfp-batteries-pros-and-cons-elon-shifts-some-teslas-lfp
lfp batteries do in fact have millions of miles in them