Mailbag: Trying To Scam God – IOTW Report

Mailbag: Trying To Scam God

Sunday, 2 April 2017, 7:00 MJA Uncategorized 62

Ann Barnhardt:

I’m not going to post the actual email text because it is very detailed and might betray anonymity, but the gist is this:

A defrocked Catholic priest married and had children.  He sexually molested his children, and children he came in contact with over the course of his career.  On his death bed, he received the Sacrament of Extreme Unction (Last Rites).   Before this, while in palliative care, the man had sexually groped the writer of the email who had gone to help with his care. One of his children claims that they had arranged for a “special version” of the Last Rites that not only absolved all of his sins, but also any temporal punishment or purgation – that he went “straight to heaven”, guaranteed.  The writer of the email has been very troubled by this, and asked for any words of clarification that I might have.

It is a VERY good and VERY fair question.  I have railed for years about the widespread and COMPLETELY JUST criticism of modern Catholics as people who are all about “gaming the system”, that is, sinning without compunction, and then just sauntering into the confessional, or, as is more common today, just thinking that they can wait until they are old and within sight of death, and THEN “have the priest say a few prayers” and BAM! All is forgiven and straight to heaven.  This premeditated, cold, calculated rationale of sinning and then appealing to nothing more than legalism is what makes people sick, and rightly so.  As I have said many times, my conversion and entry into the Church was delayed for YEARS by the scandal of this dynamic, with the Kennedy family being the exemplars.

The simple, blunt, direct answer to the writer’s question is this:

more here

62 Comments on Mailbag: Trying To Scam God

  2. Not sure God would say “You hurt me,” but He is certainly offended, and since He is infinite, the offense is infinite. We can’t fix that. Ann tells it, again!

  4. Find this stuff in the Bible. Not in there.
    When you stray from the simplicity of the scripture, you get ‘that which seems right to a man, but leads to death’.

  5. The priest, if he was a believer, is in heaven. All people sin and the levels of sin have only to do with your personal judgement at the Bema Seat as descibed in Corinthians. There, you will give an account for your life.

    Paul, in Romans described how we live in a body of sin and death and that only Jesus can deliver us from it.

    Some of us have an easier time with our personal sins, others have a bad case of it. But for the saved, these things shouldn’t happen, but they do.

    This is why Jesus paid the price for all believers sins, past, present, and future.

    To bad we can’t teach this in school or see it on the teevee.

  7. If anybody here can point me to the source in the Bible (new and old testament) of the legitimacy of confessions (which absolve you of sins), I’d be very interested.

  8. I do not know.
    What I do believe, God knows our actions and our hearts.
    He alone will pass judgement on that day and not one of us stand before him as sinless.

    Romans 6:23
    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    I suspect all sins could be forgiven, but not all forgiven sins assure a person they will enter heaven.

    I have Faith and Trust that the judgement will be righteous.

  9. The problem is simple.

    The Gospel [Good News] of the grace of God (1 Cor 15:1-4; cf Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5) is the only saving Good News on earth today.

    But Rome officially anathematized [cursed] all who preach the saving Gospel at the council of Trent (“If anyone says…”). That curse is still canon law, still in force, and still binding upon all Catholics whether or not they realize it.

    That means if you come to believe what Christ Himself revealed through Paul, His apostle to the Gentiles (that’s us), Rome curses you.

    So the choice boils down to this:

    You can have forgiveness, justification and Christ’s perfect righteous now and forever by grace through faith and no need for works to receive or to keep it, and then walk in the works HE prepared beforehand for the saved to walk in…

    or…

    you can stand before God in judgment on the basis of your own Christ-less “good works of righteousness” which He already said will be rejected as filthy rags because of your un-dealt with sin, none of which Rome’s sacraments (or any other church’s rituals) can touch.

    The choice is very simple, but the choice is yours and time’s running out…

    “It is appointed unto all once to die, but after this, JUDGMENT.”

    Don’t let any individual, loved ones, institution or traditions make it for you. YOU will stand before God ALONE, as will we all. No pope or priest will be there to advocate for you.

    Choose wisely. Your eternity depends on it.

  11. Romans 10:9
    If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Just how far that priest strayed from this we cannot know. But apparently that priest did not live his life as if he was a follower of Christ.

    Matthew 7:21-23
    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    I don’t believe a death bed ceremony is gonna fix it.

  12. Things SHOULD be riled up, C.

    Contradictory “good newses” of salvation cannot all be true. Either only one of them is correct or none of them are, but they can’t all be right. That’s simple logic. But above that, “God does not author confusion.” Meaning He did not cause all of this contention.

    So it’s up to each of us to discern false from true, and truth has always been very much in the minority.

    But once again, when we all contradict each other…someone is very, very wrong.

  13. When I was about a 10 y/o, I thought that Baptism (which washes away all sin) shouldn’t be performed until one was on the brink of death – and thus cheat “the system” and enter into Heaven.

    I now (a 63 y/o) realize that sin is a conscious decision – not a mistake or a “wrong” turning.

    I know not God’s designs concerning Justice, but I know that either we choose God or we reject Him – stumbling through a furrowed field hardly seems to justify eternal damnation – but that’s the take (and hope) of a confirmed sinner.

    izlamo delenda est …

  18. Food for Sunday morning thought…

    Almost everyone reads different Bibles. I don’t mean different translations, I mean different Bibles.

    The point is, most people have very different and even contradictory systems of how to understand the Bible. These contradictory systems have resulted in their reading what amounts to contradictory Bibles, even though in many cases their Bibles are the exact same translations containing the exact same words.

    That has led to completely different and contradictory concepts of God, of Christ, of man, of sin and of what can be done about sin.

    Which, in turn, has also led to thousands of splits and sects within all major church group (none are immune).

    Did God author all this confusion? No.

    But what do you think God wants us to do about it? (living by ‘In essentials, unity,’ as many preach today, is NOT the answer because it ignores the root problem that will send souls to the Lake)

    Hint: He tells us what He wants us to do in 2 Timothy 2:15, as the King James translates it.

  19. The lovely lady I am marrying (in 97 days) is a Roman Catholic and teaches in a Catholic Junior High School. (I am a lapsed Presbyluthertarian – or something like that) When she divorced twenty-some odd years ago her ex wanted an annulment. The two reasons given for annulment were 1) you were too young to know what you were doing 2) The marriage was never consummated.
    Well, they were married for 20 some odd years and had three children. The future Mrs.Mxyzptlk was told for only $700 they church would make it like it never happened. And she told them that would mean her children would be bastards. She refused to agree to the annulment. And while she is still a member of the Catholic church, she cannot remarry in the church – no problem – our wedding will be performed by an old friend of mine – a Presbyterian minister. And her current parish priest (and friend) will gladly be a guest at the wedding.
    So basically, the annulment is something to be “bought”.

  21. Selling unbiblical favors on behalf of God has been one of Rome’s oldest scams. It goes back at least as far as Tetzel selling indulgences for cash, which — get this — he held the title of Grand Inquisitor for Heresy.

    It’s hellish.

  26. Protestants have more than their share of money-lovers rather than lovers of God. Just look at the whole Word-Faith scam that, by some reports, made the Crouch family of TBN low level BILLIONAIRES, as it did Kenneth Copeland, one of the most demonic false teachers ever.

    And what good news of salvation has been preached on TBN all these decades? False ones — so false that the god of this world (Satan) is pleased to reward them with carnal riches which are indeed his to give.

  27. False teachers abound in every religion, organized or not. I have been blessed to know some solid Biblical teachers and ‘follow’ others in their writings. I have never worshiped any of these men. They are flawed beings even though they are saved by God’s grace.

    I subscribe to Bob DeWaay’s commentaries (http://cicministry.org/articles.php), wrote an essay on sin. Here is an excerpt:

    “But I have a question: what if, in fact, the human will (even for the Christian) is powerless to overcome sin? As we shall see, that is exactly what Paul experienced and his travail is the basis for his Romans 7 lament. The key to sanctification is not willpower, but rather the grace of God operating through the power of the Holy Spirit. Grace comes to us not from motivational books and sermons but through God’s ordained means of grace.”

    http://www.cicministry.org/commentary/issue115.htm

  29. to Bob Marley… old testament read leviticus 4, 5 and 6 deal with sin offerings that are brought to the priests for absolutions specifically, LV 5 17 thru LV 6 : 7

    AS the New testament Jesus of course was the offering/sacrifice so no physical sacrifice is required but amends have to be made in sincerity,and confession done through his disciples/priests

    In John 20 Jesus says to his disciples (21) “as the father sent me I am sending you…. If you forgive the sins of anyone they are forgiving, if you withhold forgiveness from anyone it is withheld

  31. I don’t know beans about the Catholic Church. My late wife grew up Catholic but was later saved during the Jesus people movement in the early 70’s as was I. I admire a lot of things Catholics do but know that grace is the key since we are saved by grace and not by works, what I can do for God since nothing I can ever do will ever please God. It is only through God who saved me that I can be reconciled to God and not by confessing my sins to a priest. And besides my wife told me a lot of times when she went to confession she made things up in order to confess her sins or lack of what she thought or the catholic Church thought was sin. And I don’t believe in Purgatory either. I’ve already been forgiven of my sins so why do I need to spend time in Purgatory in order for God to purge me of my sins, since it’s already been done by his sacrifice on the Cross for me. I like Catholics but sometimes I think they’re just plain nuts as much as I dislike phonies like Joel Osteen and the prosperity gospel.

  34. “They’re just plain nuts”
    Exactly Geoff. I’ll bet 1/2 Catholics voted for Clinton and Obama. They haven’t read the Bible and what they do know they take and turn it upside down on it’s head. And my observation, having 11 years of Catholic school, is that way more than half of the clergy hadn’t even read the Bible. So you get a lot craziness instead of the brilliant doctrine that is hidden there behind all of the blindness.

    Yea “making up stuff in Confession” Exactly. It’s because they that teach this stuff don’t understand so Confession ends up like that.

    The blind guides…

  35. My view on religion is; It’s not WHAT you know but WHO you know and Jesus IS my best friend, let’s just say I got an “In”. While I cannot recite Bible verse from memory, I respect those who can. If there is ever a question in my mind of how to interpret some of it, I just look at my best bud and say, “What do you make of this Lord?” and by golly, he communicates it somehow.

    On the topic of preacher scams, my favorite (not condoning just admiring the grift talent) is Robert Tilton on one of the farting preacher vids (come on, you’ve all seen theses admit it). Anyhow, he looks at the camera and says, “When you send me a financial vow of faith of $1,000, you aren’t sending ME the money, you are sending it to HIM.” –then he looks up at the ceiling–“What you are saying is GOD, I don’t have a thousand dollars, but YOU DO!”
    Bullshit artist genius right there.

  36. JPM,

    In the days after Obama’s reelection, I heard one right wing radio host (mid-level guy, can’t recall his name) who said exit polling showed more self-identified Catholics voted for Obama than the first time around. I’ve never seen that mentioned anywhere else so I’ve often wondered if it’s true.

  40. The foundation and mandates of the Word of God cannot be modified or added to despite man’s desire to do so. Consequently, this thread highlights the confusion so many people have about the Gospel. It really is simple, recognizing you are in need of a relationship with the True and Living God through Jesus Christ, Savior and Lord, because sin separates us from God. Yes, confession, (Romans 10:8-13, James 5:16, 1 John 1:9) is key to beginning and continuing an effective relationship with God. The only priest we are required to confess our sins to is Christ, (1 Timothy 2:3-6) Why? Because God loves us, (John 3:16-21) and it’s for our protection. This is grace and mercy in action. God knows we are incapable of saving ourselves, from ourselves and others.
    The mistake most people make is confusing a relationship with Christ with religion. Religion is not the substance of faith, it is merely a way to practice our faith to help stay accountable.
    Ann talks alot about her religion, but seems to be clueless about a relationship with Christ. She also seems very offended by evangelism. She’s probably let the bad behavior of others color her understanding of evangelism. All religions have bad actors, that’s why we put our trust and faith only in Christ. People disappoint us constantly, but we are commanded to love God, be wise, walk in love and know God has set up a recompence for those who do us harm. Ask to know God, trust Him and by His Spirit He will give you understanding.
    BTW, there is no way to scam a omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent Living God.

  42. For those interested, please note the following which pertains in particular to Christians;
    1John 1:8-10
    8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

  45. John 1 8-10 reads “he was not the light but came to testify to the light. The true light , which enlightens everyone was coming into the world. HE was in the world

    None of this seems related to the other passages 99 references.

  46. JPM,

    Either all sin has been forgiven and the believer is indeed counted by God as dead to sin (as Paul said), or sins must be confessed if they’re to be forgiven and we’re to be cleansed (as John said). Both truths cannot apply to the same people at the same time.

  49. Grool, there is no contradictions in the verses you referenced. All The Word is true. The mandate to …not let sin reign… for example, reinforces the necessity to confess our sins to God. We as Christians are no longer slaves to sin. Even though sin still exists, it’s no longer our master, God is, and he hates sin because it is destructive. Sin should not rule us.
    Colossians 2:13, again not a contadiction. It marries nicely with confessimg our sins to God. Christ nailed our indictments, (sins) to the Cross as He sacrificed His life in substitute for us. Who else is better to actually forgive us of our sins that we commit? As believers, God responds to us because of our acceptance of what Christ has done.
    The whole book of Colossians is a wonderful guidance on how to live a Godly life in Christ, by the way. Personal “spiritual housecleaning” is a responsibility of all Christians.

  51. @ PJ APRIL 2, 2017 AT 12:11 PM, thank you

    I was waiting to read that. Without contrition/regret/repentance the Sacraments of Confession and Holy Communion, even fasting and prayer are meaningless gestures.

  52. “Works” is about being like Christ in your life. This man is doing the only kind of works that matter. If you claim faith and are an asshole to others – you’re not doing the works that matter and your faith is a false one.

    I’m not going to go ’round with non-believers that think they know the Bible and so reject God. o.0 It’s just a weak way of admitting they don’t believe and trying to seem smart about it. In essence, putting their choice as an outside influence instead of owning it. They take the position that they know better than the Creator of everything, whether they realize it or not. What hubris.

    Just a few thoughts to leave here. Take them or leave them.

    There is no difference between the smallest sin (as even you yourself may deem) and the greatest.

    No one is worthy on their own to spend eternity with God. No one is better than the next in this regard. If Jeffry Dahmer’s last moment acceptance was real, he’s in. I am no better. Neither is anyone else on this point. You may think so, but you’re wrong to think so. Remember, thinking of having sex with someone outside your marriage is the same as having it – no difference. There is no scale to slide. You’re either perfect or you’re not. You get one guess regarding your own status.

    To reject His offer of forgiveness seems insane to me, but non-believers, mostly, think this worldly life is all there is and that if God was real He would, in essence, be a zookeeper and nothing could possibly go wrong. (I think they want heaven’s standards NOW, or it’s all a lie).

    You’ll never accept God and what He has to offer if you think this world is all there is. This is the time where evil walks the Earth and has it’s way. Where you make your choice.

    Starting point question I had: Do you believe your soul was made to live an eternal life? A simple yes or no says it all.

    Not everyone will go. This was so from the very beginning.

    He loves even non-believers, that’s why He won’t force anyone to be with Him. Being without Him is hell all by itself. It’s not punishment for not believing or accepting Him. That is your choice to not be with Him. That’s what the free will is all about. You were told. Probably many, many times. That’s on you. No one else can save you from your own choice.

    Mt:10:14: And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

    To the faithful that get frustrated by the rhetoric of a non-believer – don’t fret over them. It’ll only serve to pull you away from God. In no way does their lack of faith affect your own salvation. Yet, I do feel sorry for them and have an aching about it.

    I am as bad a sinner as there ever was. When you realize you are too, then you get it.

    P.S. My Catholic friends (3) have some jacked-up mixtures of beliefs that slightly incorporate the Bible. How a Catholic school produces that, I don’t know. In other words, they think they know better than God, too.

    P.P.S. Maybe a huge point of science could help. Everything in this universe is a matter of vibrations. Everything. Nothing is actually “solid”. The spoken word of God creating and sustaining the universe fits perfectly with this scientific fact. Science is NOT anti-God. What men interpret and put upon factual evidence can be, though.

    I’m done. Take it or leave it. I love you either way.

  53. Once I converted to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, all these trivial religious arguments ceased to exist for me. Who can fear the imaginary tortures of some man-made “Hell” when he is wrapped in the loving embrace of His Noodly Appendage?

    I may even consider becoming a Pastafarian Minister, as soon as I can save up the requisite 25 bucks.

    http://www.venganza.org/about/

    🙂

  56. Bob Marley April 2, 2017 at 8:41 am

    If anybody here can point me to the source in the Bible (new and old testament) of the legitimacy of confessions (which absolve you of sins), I’d be very interested.

    Here are two.

    Rom:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    1Jn:1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Related:

    1Jn:4:2: Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

    1Jn:4:3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    2Jn:1:7: For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

  58. @/notmyrealname: I used to belong to the COTSG, but apparently my love of “Bob” was not strong enough to totally achieve True Slackness, so they threw me out, saying I could never see the face of Dobbs again.

    But I’m OK now. Like most Americans, I just had to find a religion that more closely resembles the way I am, and not the way it is.

    🙂

  59. 99,

    Pardon my bluntness but one cannot be forgiven all sins (Col 2:13) and indeed be counted as dead to sin (Rom 6) while at the same time conditionally forgiven all sins only upon confession (“if we confess…He will forgive” 1 Jn 1:9). Both ARE true in that both are biblical — but they do contradict in that they cannot be true for the same people at the same time.

    One either confesses to be forgiven each sin, or one is already forgiven all sins. But not both.

  61. 99,

    I do have understanding. I know and believe that His word says He does not author confusion, which means He definitely doesn’t contradict His own Word. PERIOD.

    So to teach that believers are already forgiven all sins while, AT THE SAME TIME, they must confess their sins else they WILL NOT be forgiven and cleansed, is to teach that God contradicts Himself after all. It is to slander Him as the author of confusion.

    Think very seriously upon that before you dismiss me as unlearned.

  62. 99,

    To simplify:

    Paul: all sins forgiven. The believer is counted as having died to both sin and God’s condemning Law, and so is now beyond condemnation (no laws apply to the dead).

    John: sins are 100% guaranteed to be forgiven and unrighteousness cleansed *IF* each sin is confessed. If not confessed, then not forgiven.

    Both are true…but both cannot possibly apply to the same people at the same time.

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