Is There a Hell? – OPEN THREAD – IOTW Report

Is There a Hell? – OPEN THREAD

Friday, 30 March 2018, 17:01 BFH Uncategorized 65

I’ve been receiving multiple emails from many people wanting to discuss the Pope’s recent “alleged” remark. (Alleged because the Vatican denies what is transcribed in his interview. For the record, I believe the writer quoted the Pope accurately. This would be a very odd thing for an interviewer to make up at of whole cloth. I mean no disrespect.)

Scalfari: “What about bad souls? Where are they punished?”

Bad souls “are not punished,” Pope Francis is quoted, “those who do not repent and cannot therefore be forgiven disappear. There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.”

This is the Vatican’s statement-

“The Holy Father Francis recently received the founder of the newspaper La Repubblica in a private meeting on the occasion of Easter, without however giving him any interviews. What is reported by the author in today’s article [in La Repubblica] is the result of his reconstruction, in which the textual words pronounced by the Pope are not quoted. No quotation of the aforementioned article must therefore be considered as a faithful transcription of the words of the Holy Father.”

Pat Buchanan asks, “what did Christ die on the cross to save us from?”

Disappearing is a very Buddhist way of reckoning death. Nothingness is not a punishment. Nothingness is the state you were in before you were born. Nothingness is not to be feared. Nothingness renders God meaningless.

As Buchanan says in the essay below, if the Pope has been quoted accurately, this is heresy.

Does the Pope Believe in Hell?

65 Comments on Is There a Hell? – OPEN THREAD

  3. I don’t think it matters as it wasn’t an official pronouncement or whatever. Also, there are Catholics who don’t believe in this pope. But I’m a very bad cradle Catholic, so don’t take my word for it. We should ask Adrienne, Lisa Graas, or Peter DaTechGuy.

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  5. Yes there is, clearly stated so multiple times.
    If your name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life then where it is, how hot it is, how bad the pain will be, is of no concern.

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  11. I am Catholic.

    This is not the first time this fool, Jorge Bergoglio who pretends to be Pope, has said this. He is NOT Catholic. He is a Communist infiltrator bent on destroying the Catholic Church and Western Civilization.

    He is evil and might possibly be the the False Prophet Forerunner of the Anti-Christ.

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  15. This particular Pope says a lot of things. lol. Just keep reading your Bibles and ignore him until they get a better one.

    Anyway, growing up I’ve been told that yes, there’s a hell. Hell is where God sends you to sit alone in the cold and away from God’s light, ignored. So to me, eternal fire or not, you are away from God’s light and his mercy and tortured by your bad deeds. Worst place to be.

    But, you would be granted a talk with God, eventually, when He says so. So even though your time in ‘hell’ would not be forever, you will get punished and you will pay for what you did in your lifetime until He says so.

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  16. If I understand Catholic ecclesiology, then if this guy isn’t THE pope (and the same could be said for many wicked popes during dark/middle ages), then so much for an unbroken holy line of succession all the way back to Peter.

    In which case, the church as a whole would be illegitimate insofar as its alleged unbroken succession of divinely preserved human authority; that would have stopped with the first non-pope to sit in the chair, whoever that was.

    But I’m just a Bible only fundie, so whatta I know. 😉

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  20. I believe there is Hell and I was shocked that this came out during Easter Week of all times. It is a lie and disrespectful especially during Holy Week. Expecting to hear some about it from my pastor at the Good Friday Service tonight.

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  22. Zilla. It matters, what this dope said. Heaven and Hell have to do with Good and Evil. Those who do not fear Hell are prone to commit evil. They have no conscience. As Killary infamously said ” at this point what difference does it make?” referring to the Benghazi massacre. There is a woman without a conscience. Others without conscience commit murders, rapes, robberies, be-headings and so forth and show no remorse. A cop with a conscience may kill in self-defense, but it will haunt him for the rest of his life. That’s the difference between good and evil. The Pope is wrong!

    Bars are open in Ireland to day, Good Friday. First time in 90 years. Times are changing. For the worst.
    Just sayin’.

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  23. Yes, there is a Hell. It may not be the fire and brimstone kind (though, it might be), but, for sure, it is the absence of God.

    One of my favorite books by C. S. Lewis, “The Great Divorce”, is about the ‘divorce’ between Heaven and Hell. Very insightful and thought provoking.

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  24. The Catholic Church needs to admit they fucked up with this guy. Affirmative action for Popes works out worse for that job than almost everywhere else.

    But since they can’t admit they were wrong for only picking this guy to curry favor with Hispanic Catholics, they will be destroyed from within.

    Pride is a sin. Correction: Was a sin.

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  25. MJA,

    “Anyway, growing up I’ve been told that yes, there’s a hell. Hell is where God sends you to sit alone in the cold and away from God’s light, ignored. So to me, eternal fire or not, you are away from God’s light and his mercy and tortured by your bad deeds. Worst place to be.”

    There are two main reasons people come up with varying denials of it (annihilation, purgatory, etc). It’s either because of plain unbelief, or because they have a very low view of sin — they greatly underestimate how awful sin is in the sight of a holy God (they view it from our end, not from His).

    What they forget, or don’t believe, is, being absolutely holy He WILL NOT tolerate sin in His presence. That means if Christ did not bear the sins of an individual via faith in His death, burial and resurrection, that person has no possible place in God’s presence EVER. Christ bore sins only once. It never has been and never will be repeated. So for someone to somehow get out of Hell after a few million years or whatever, would mean he, himself, suffered and paid for his own sins to God’s satisfaction.

    But that is a flat denial of the Bible fact that Christ alone was the one and only perfect Lamb of God, sacrificed ONCE to take away sin.

    Thus “NOW is the day of salvation” because “it is appointed unto man once to die, after this, judgment.” I respectfully disagree with your belief that there’s an eventual “out.” The Bible gives no indication that “forever” doesn’t actually mean what the word means.

    If one hasn’t trusted in Christ’s death, burial and resurrection for his complete sin debt, he will die in his sins and so die without hope.

    And whatever “Hell” really is, I’m convinced it’s both longer and worse than we can comprehend. But, apparently, the pope does not believe that.

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  26. As a recovering Catholic, this is just another example of why I left this “organized religion” with no regrets. The Book says it all, the pope is just a man in a funny hat.

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  27. But Moe, does it matter if Francis believes it? That is what I’m saying. He says a lot of insane things, but if he is not speaking in his official capacity as a matter of doctrine, then it is not an official pontifical statement (or whatever the correct word is) and is not infallible and therefore doesn’t matter – and a lot of Catholics don’t believe in this particular pope anyway. Francis could say in conversation that the sky is red, not blue, and I would not feel obligated to take that on faith.

    One more thing, everyone, sorry autocorrect spelled Ann’s last name wrong, but I’d still love to see her thoughts on the matter.

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  29. While we’re on the topic, I’ve wanted to ask Catholics this for some time but never had the opportunity. This’ll work.

    The Council of Trent, which is still canon law and binding on all Catholics (whether or not they know it), says this about purgatory:

    “The council affirmed the doctrine of purgatory and damned anyone who claimed ‘that after the grace of justification has been received the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out for any repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be paid.'”

    Now that’s clear enough: deny the need for purgatory and you’re officially cursed.

    In Colossians 2:13, however, the apostle Paul says that in Christ, ALL trespasses are forgiven the believer:

    “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses…”

    Note: in the Greek, “all” means, literally, ALL. Thus, all forgiven = no punishment remains (the offenses were all borne by and forgiven in Another, never to be remembered by God). That’s why Romans 8:1 is true for a believer.

    So three questions:

    1. Did Trent anathematize (curse) the apostle Paul? Sure looks like it to me.

    2. If just a denial of purgatory results in anathema, would not a denial OF HELL ITSELF be an even greater sin?

    3. If so, logically would not this pope be accursed?

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  30. I have never seen my late wife (an ex Catholic) laugh so hard as when we watched Monty Python’s The Meaning Of Life and they sang the “Every sperm is sacred song”. And she came from a family of 9 children, 6 boys and 3 girls. It was hysterical. And all of them from the same mother as my father in law would proudly point out. To him every sperm was sacred or just about, I was watching a nature program on PBS with him years ago and they showed how coral had sex by ejaculating large clouds of sperm into the water and he turns to me and says< "Boy, I wish I could do that." And I'm just sitting there dumbfounded not knowing what to say. He was a horny old coot, he once asked my wife how her sex life was when she took him to breakfast and she just about slapped the shit out of him because it was none of his damned business.

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  31. Almost forgot…the pronouncements of Trent usually begin, “If *ANYONE* says…” meaning there doesn’t seem to be an exception even for popes, whether they speak ex cathedra or not.

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  34. There are Christian scholars who also don’t believe in hell. That hell was the name of the city dump of Jerusalem and Jesus just used it as an example people could understand. There are many Hebrew and aramaic(?) language experts who contend there have been misinterpretations. I hope so because the older I get the less accepting & forgiving I am.
    I don’t feel love one another is possible. (Jesus forgive me, please).
    Let the self-righteousness begin.

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  35. Exactly grool. Very concise. What many may think is a cruelty, is really an all out effort by a loving God to deter man from a horrific final punishment, that cannot end. Yes, the stakes are high, that’s why Hell is to be avoided by accepting and knowing the price God himself paid for us on the cross.

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  37. Hell if I know.
    Who the Hell knows?
    I have not been to Hell and back.
    But we’ll have a Helluva good time discussing it.
    Until Hell freezes over.
    Or we go to Hell in a hand basket.
    What the Hell?
    Hell no.

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  38. “This is such a load off my mind…let us sin, that grace may abound!”

    The apostle Paul addressed and refuted that slander more than once. You might want to look into it.

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  39. Yes, there is Hell. In this season of Easter, of all times, Christians must ask, “If there is no Hell, why did Jesus Christ take our place on the cross?”

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  40. Yes, forget the Pope – his poop stinks. Martin Luther totally discredited the concept of a Pope during the reformation. If you haven’t left the Roman Catholic Church by now, it’s time. Read the Bible, ignore this idiotic Marxist and Godless Pope.

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  42. AA,

    He died for one of two reasons.

    It was either to pay for ALL of our sins – indeed, for sin itself – or for only some or maybe most of our sins…but not all.

    It was either to ABSOLUTELY and PERMANENTLY absolve of sin those who trust in Him, or to only POTENTIALLY, but with no certainty, absolve us of them.

    It was either to procure salvation guaranteed unto Life, or only probation that, despite our best good works, can possibly result in eternal separation from God.

    Only one of those two options gives anyone real hope for eternity, and joy now.

    The other gives (to those who let themselves contemplate it) only the constant dread fear of failure and condemnation to Hell…of never knowing for sure that one has, or even CAN do enough to “make it,” as the above quote from Trent proves.

    See the difference?

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  43. If I’m reading the majority or consensus in the replies it would seem that most think he said it and most disagree with him..

    As one of those who pestered the crap out of Mr. Hat to start the thread I am very disappointed in the “POOP” if he in fact said it. That’s coming from one of those “fallen away catlickers” who walked away in the sixties. There’s nothing like a short stint in the seminary seeing seeing how the sausage is made to create an unforgiving revulsion in some (at least myself).

    Having said that let me continue my diatribe (ALL OPINION AND RESERVE THE RIGHT TO BE WRONG) with the idea that they started down their “slippery slope” with “Vatican Two.” You are going to have a problem when you tell someone that something is unequivocal and irrevocable and turn around and say “Never Mind!” Then add the scandals and cover-ups and and what chance are you going to have “holding the faithful?” I believe it did give George Carlin some great material though.

    Again going back to the idea that this “Political Pope” thought it would be a good idea to grant an interview, audience or conversation with his “atheist friend” on Holy Thursday rather than reserving said time for the “faithful” during Holy Week makes no sense to me. The Jesuits are especially noted or trained as the “defenders of the faith” so it goes against everything they stress as they teach and beat it into your head on how to argue, debate and otherwise counter any of the contradictions and arguments presented against the Church. This whole thing smells on ice… Too many things being said or happening that would seem to present the agenda of harming oneself.

    One other thought that perhaps some better educated and knowledgeable posters here might enlighten me on. Wasn’t there some “Sealed Document” that was to be opened around the change of the millennial that I don’t remember seeing publication of or the light of day hitting it. Seems to me that Benedict would have been privy to that and he decided to pack it in and walk away. Think he was the first Pope in history to do that.

    Thinking this is getting too long and enough for now. Perhaps revisit later after reading additional comments…

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  44. Pope, schmope – – go piss up a rope. Organized religion does not teach enlightenment and spirituality. They are only interested in worldly power and money. Christ left organized religion hundreds of years ago.

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  47. Should you be looking for other links the constitution.com website opens you to a bunch beyond their take on this.

    Drudge also with a nice take on how our friends in the PI celebrate Easter…

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  48. @grool March 30, 2018 at 5:44 pm

    > if this guy isn’t THE pope …, then so much for an unbroken holy line of succession …
    >
    > In which case, the church as a whole would be illegitimate …
    >
    > But I’m just a Bible only fundie, so whatta I know.

    Best to stay away from The Constitution, Mr. grool.

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  49. THE POPE MIGHT ACTUALLY BE RIGHT THIS TIME

    Gehenna, is not actually a burning sulfur pit, it’s just a place where souls are laid to rest, never to return.

    What “Hell” is, is just a place absent of God. The truly damned are fallen angels, and their followers. I consider “Hell” to be a sort of lifeless moonscape, not a torture pit. Those that are not worthy of God, are just “put down” and not allowed either option of heaven or moonscape, such as murderers, while not active Satan-worshipping evil beings, they are not worthy of everlasting life, but are not punished in Hell either.

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  52. Sounds like the Pope is having trouble reconciling the idea of a loving God who truly cares about His creations despite their human failings with a vengeful God who will punish those
    of them who do not believe in Him with an eternal Lake of Fire.

    Maybe he needs to go back to his original Catholic roots and get his mind right before granting any more interviews.

    😉

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  53. Well I’m going to trust what the Bible says.

    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

    Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth

    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

    Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    (This is by no means the only references to hell, but if you believe in God’s Word then it’s certainly imo enough examples of hell in the Bible to say yes there is a hell.)

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  54. Great references, Old Racist White Woman. Might also add this from The Holy Bible;
    Luke 16:22-31
    22″ The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.

    23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

    24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

    25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

    26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

    27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
    28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

    29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

    30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

    31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

    Yes, it’s a parable Jesus told, but it establishes Hell is an actual place of permanent punishment, according to The Lord.
    BTW, This story does not mean God hates rich people. It was told to let materialistic, self-serving people of the day know that they were facing the same fate of any man – eventual death and without God, an eternity of torment.
    You really can’t take it with you except spiritual riches in Christ – Matthew 6:19-21

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  56. “grool- ever hear of parody?”

    Yes. Problem is,

    1. people like me have had that “oh, if you’re safe in Christ forever, that must mean you can sin all you want!” accusation thrown at us for years, mostly by Catholics and other groups who are forbidden to believe in the complete and permanent forgiveness of sins as revealed by God through the apostle Paul. So whenever it’s brought up like you did, we assume the person seriously means it. And I’ll bet you did…someone who really believes it does NOT joke about it.

    2. I have no patience, respect or use for anyone who parodies the Word of God, especially when they’re anonymnous, and especially when the apostle ripped what they’re saying as slander.

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  57. For a church and religion that is so concerned about its falling membership (and donations), the Pope just cut the church’s throat. If there is no Hell, then why go to church?

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  59. I nominate grool for Pope!

    By the way, the Founders published their thoughts on liberty and the possible structure of our fledgling nation anonymously, largely because the English would have imprisoned them or worse. We currently live in a society intolerant of dissent, or really any opinion at all that doesn’t follow doctrinaire progressive theory. We all live one bad election away from tyranny. So there’s little to be gained by tacking your name (or a made up one) to what you say publicly, and nothing lost except the respect of someone like you.

  62. #Anonymous March 31, 2018 at 9:01 am

    > We all live one bad election away from tyranny.

    Yes, we know. We know. Now, how many more times do you need to be told “No backsies”?

  63. “Trust me, where I am, this ain’t Warm Springs, Georgia. 👿”

    And there you have it straight from the Resident Expert.

    BTW, FDR, is the late Judge Reinhardt up to operating temperature yet??

  64. “Wait… what does this mean for the old expression: Sure-As-Hell?”

    Looks like we’ve got to revert to the old standby “Sure-As-Shit” then, because we all know “Shit exists” and “Shit Happens”.

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