Health care. Costs. Insurance.
Look at this comment from another thread by The Hard Truth.
We’ve lost the entire concept of insurance – one pays a small sum to another to help mitigate the cost of an event that both parties hope never occur. The cost of the insurance is based on the statistical risks that of the event occurring. The lower the risks, the lower the payments.
“Insuring” a preexisting condition is like forcing a company to provide car insurance for participants in a demolition derby. This is not longer insurance, but financial aid.
Everyone knows costs will remain high financial aid will be required for preexisting conditions by insurance companies.
That is, indeed, the hard truth.
Do these critically ill people belong in our insurance pools?
If it’s supposed to be insurance, and not financial aid, the answer is no. Someone with cancer could buy insurance, but not for their cancer, it would be insurance against, I suppose, injuries sustained in a car accident.
Who decides what preexisting conditions exempt someone from joining the pool? Could being overweight be a pre-existing condition?
Once priced out of obtaining insurance, what happens to these people? If someone shows up at a hospital, critically ill, the hospitals do not turn them away. They end up being a drain on resources one way or the other and then prices go up for all of us.
So, what’s the answer to affordable health insurance that doesn’t include the hard choice of letting people who are ill die? Alan Grayson once said that this was the right’s plan.
Is it?
I hope not. I know for sure that that is the left’s plan. Once they achieve single payer there will be death panels, rationing and people will definitely be left to die, particularly if they are no longer earners contributing to the leftist pyramid scheme.
How is affordable healthcare insurance possible?
Would a conservative ever say that a private insurance company should have a limit on how much profit they can make, imposed by the government?
The cost of insurance is based on the cost of healthcare. Healthcare prices are up because, among other reasons, too many people can’t, or won’t, pay when they need services.
And round and round it goes. Chasing tail. Chicken/egg.
Who blinks first?
Let’s hear some ideas.
The Insurance business was born out of seeing 9/10 ships return safely to harbor and playing those odds with the ship’s owners.
We’ll replace your $10,000 ship for a fee of $1500 annually with a $2500 deductible on your part.
Leaky old boats need not apply
Well, we could just have insurance for catastrophic shit and let me just go to the doctor I want to go to by myself without interference from insurance, the state, the feds telling me I have to pay for someone’s dick to be whipped inside out because they enjoy being a girl.
How about that? See? I just saved a ton of money by switching to minding my own fucking health business.
I’m not going to try to tackle the whole problem but a small piece of data is about something I heard on a radio talk show yesterday. It was how the feds are going to send mega bucks back to the states in order for the states to better manage their own high risk pool. The figure was something like 8-10 billion dollars. If that is a per state figure — which I believe they said the average was — that seems wildly high and ridiculously adequate to pay for the medical expenses (in full) of every person who shows up at a clinic or hospital for anything. In other words, given the amount of money already spent on so-called healthcare (insurance), it seems it would have been money better spent on actual healthcare. Add to that every penny and nickel spent by the gov’t (at all levels) in preventive initiatives of all types and I don’t think anyone would be talking about healthcare (insurance). Just a thought.
why are health care costs so high ?
before you can prescribe a treatment you need to describe the illness.
government regulation ?
advances in medicine ?
malpractice insurance ?
malpractice lawyers ?
larger population, fewer service providers ?
add any others you want and then break that down as to what about those items add cost to healthcare.
then you can start thinking about prescribing a cure, but I bet if truthful getting government out of he equation will do more than anything else to bring about true cost saving reform.
in short actual free market competition and people being held personally accountable for personal choices made.
It seems that a lot of our solutions (sans MJAs) involves federal subsidies of some sort.
It creates the very weak illusion of a free market with the hand of government up to its elbows.
Like cigarette smokers, who pay a higher insurance premium, overweight and obese people should be required to pay a higher premium. Obesity is a better predictor of myriad health problems, perhaps even more than smoking.
A weird guilty pleasure of mine is that show “My 600 Pound Life” and there are A LOT of people now in this country who are 400+ pounds(!) Many times the show follows the treatment of these people (who are obviously not working or independently financially secure) undergoing lengthy, months-long stays in a hospital to control their diets. They’re not paying for it, so who is? Has anyone seen the cost of one overnight stay in a hospital lately?
If not a preexisting condition, at least it should result in higher insurance premiums.
>> and people being held personally accountable for personal choices made.>>
And what is the punishment for being held personally responsible for bad personal choices made?
You go to the hospital, they do not turn you away. You punk out on the bill.
Now what?
The government gets involved.
You, in fact, invite the government to get involved.
If not a preexisting condition, at least it should result in higher insurance premiums.>>
and when they don’t pay, what happens?
Is the fat guy rolled into the alley?
Deadbeats win.
For real, doctor’s offices should be like Targets or Macy’s. Walk right in, do whatever, pay the doctor’s payment plan or fees, and walk right out. With insurance, they do shit tons of paperwork, file reports, ask patients ridiculous questions that have nothing to do with why the patient’s there. There’s a reason why doctors charge cash patients a lot less for treatment than if they’re on insurance. It ain’t just greed. It’s not their goal in life to fill shit out in triplicate. They are trying to fix you.
Most people (including bureaucrats and politicians) don’t understand the difference between those two issues. As far as insurance, I think the best course is to deregulate the health insurance industry to allow competition. Probably most conservatives and libertarians will agree with that.
As far as pre-existing conditions and the uninsured, that is likely to be a tax issue. Perhaps there could be a “copay” for those receiving treatment, but unless the government goes after them with the IRS, it will end up being a matter of redistribution. I also think it should be a state matter, not federal. That means sales or property taxes go up. Definitely no easy answer.
Everybody is Sick when Profit is the motivation.
As Seen on TV in content and advertisement.
There is NoCure for Greed.
Everybody who isn’t Sick must play so too.
Otherwise, only they pay the bill.
Play or Pay.
Nobody wins this Game.
There’s a model that already works. Atlas MD.
Fur, it’s like Social Security abuse. SS (outside of its intended retirement benefit) was intended to help those who were genuinely disabled. Now, with ADA laws that require employers to hire those we past considered disabled, there are really very few who would honestly qualify. But today there are more SS disability beneficiaries than ever and I’m alarmed at the types of “disabilities” being claimed. It’s another form of gov’t incrementalism towards socialism.
If ever there was a need for disrupting an industry, it would be healthcare. Allopathic medicine needs a complete overhaul and yet we never hear anything being discussed on that side of the question. Bringing down drug prices is a bandaid cure.
Perverting our language has been job one for many years in Washington.
Grayson, when he said, “the right’s plan is for you to die” was onto something.
He said this because he absolutely knows that his constituency, the deadbeats, the losers, the parasites, will be the key to single payer.
Our only choice in order to not have single payer is to let people die.
I’ve thought about it and thought about it and it is the only outcome brought to its logical conclusion.
The left wanted the fair market system to collapse so they could take over. They did this by inviting, promoting and encouraging the parasite lifestyle.
Short of letting people die, they win.
If something is free, it is too expensive for me to afford.
The government cannot make something cheaper with price controls and regulations.
Insurance shouldn’t be for checkups because these things we anticipate. (Like car insurance doesn’t pay for oil changes). The logical next step for a liberal would be to cite that 325 accidents per year are caused by engine wear and engine’s seizing up in heavy traffic, so they would argue that if we made oil changes part of car insurance, since everybody is already buying oil changes we would all save money because those 325 accidents wouldn’t occur. But of course, IOTWorlders know that’s BS logic.
I have insurance through my wife’s work, federal Blue Cross, they have thousands of people on that plan with pre-existing and expensive lifetime illnesses but the insurance is amazingly cheap because the vast majority of the people on the plan do not have these illnesses.
For the above as a reason I think that health insurance should not be offered through work. If the millions of healthy people on group policies were on policies of their own private policy, essentially the entire insured population of the USA would be the risk pool for people with long term/expensive illnesses. Government wage “controls” during the WWII started workplace insurance and it should end. (wishful thinking though)
Dr. Betsy touched on the above point with Prager. If you put all the very ill people only with a small group of healthy people you have an unworkable system (aka Obolocare)
So my answer to the “problem” would be eliminate workplace insurance.
Having breakfast with 5 people over 75 this morning, wasn’t a single one born in a hospital. Imagine that.
Fur, part of that is because people know they can get huge, do drugs and somebody will take care of them.
Maybe it’s time to yank these people’s chains? When most people find out their unemployment, welfare, ebt is going to get cut off, they suddenly find jobs. when illegals realize their bennies will be cut off, they go home or don’t cross the border in the first place. I don’t know, sounds mean, but maybe for the irresponsible, this could work. As for the people who are severely handicapped or mentally ill, if their families are gone or are complete assholes, then we have no choice. We have a taxpayer funded net.
Another problem is, we put billions into programs and they are raided. Why do illegals get medicare, EBT and SS?
“and when they don’t pay, what happens?
Is the fat guy rolled into the alley?”
I hate thinking of healthcare and insurance from an actuarial view. It all sounds great until you consider that most people in this country have other people who love them and don’t want them to die. This isn’t the animal kingdom.
Drugs: I want to know which assholes at the FDA and who in congress is getting $$$$$ to keep expensive drugs from becoming generic.
So my answer to the “problem” would be eliminate workplace insurance>>>
It would have to include public workers.
Good luck.
I love the idea, however.
Non-union places can do it. they should at least be given a choice.
People confuse “pooled resourcing” with “socialism.”
Particularly the maggots in gov’t.
Emergency Rooms are REQUIRED to care for all comers because the Bureaucracy forces them to do so. Stop that practice. Is anyone “entitled” to plumbing? Is anyone “entitled” to electrical work? Is anyone “entitled” to bug control? Is anyone “entitled” to be amused by a philosopher? Is anyone “entitled” to be entertained by a guitarist?
Of course not. The idea is absurd.
Unless it is “health care.” Then somehow it’s a right.
It’s absurd fukkin bullshit, and even the maggots pressing it, and the maggots who try to look stupid about it, know it’s absurd – but continue to insist because that’s the road to “socialistic” totalitarianism – and THAT is what they’re after.
POWER. Absolute POWER.
They want us to deliver ourselves into their chains – to deliver our children into their chains – to happily march into captivity.
Fuck them – and the horses on which they rode.
izlamo delenda est …
@AA – Risk factors are the reason people *shouldn’t (I edited Frank’s comment because it is so integral to his entire comment – bfh) answer a generic Q&A sheet at ANY Dr.s office. Except the Allergy to medicine question and past surgeries that are already know.
All the mental health and lifestyle questions will eventually be used to target people.
I don’t disagree that certain risk factors increase health insurance cost but the database at the HHS isn’t a good place to store the fact that a person might have a problem with depression and drinks three beers a day.
If i had a local doctor who offered a plan like atlas, i’d take it.
There is waaaaaay to much gov. meddling in health care. You should see the code book for reimbursement. Personally paying for each clinic visit and submitting your own bill to ins is a good start. Then carry a catastrophic or hospital stay type of insurance?
Should NOT answer a generic Q&A
The market solution is to make preexisting conditions profitable. How?
This approach does not belong in the insurance industry. Health care R&D, Pharmaceuticals, etc. may be the better positioned for finding a solution. How do you provide care for cancer, diabetes and other ailments while realizing a profit from the care so that both parties benefit?
Who knows, it may be akin to turning lead into gold.
@Frank — completely agree.
So, here’s a interesting data point:
There are group insurance pools for Christians to join together to reduce costs. One would imagine that the rates for this particular group would be quite low given that devoted Christians usually live pretty clean lives — don’t smoke, don’t drink much, don’t abuse drugs and don’t have sex outside of marriage. But we know Christians are sinners. So how does the insurance plan figure out who is an upright Christian and who isn’t?
Charlie
Exactly.
The largest contributor to these healthcare premium increases are:
1. Removal of lifetime benefit caps. It use to be if you used your lifetime cap of $1 million your insurance “ran out.” Now there is an incentive to keep providing care to those with a poor outcomes.
2. Give something away free, and people will abuse it.
3. Give providers an incentive, and they will maximize it to their benefit and not the patients. Medicare at one time reimbursed providers at cost + capital. Things got out of hand, and they revised their reimbursement methodology. We are coming full circle once again.
Chief Justice Roberts was correct, medical premiums are no longer “insurance”, but just another “hidden” tax from the government.
BTW, if you get hurt in an automobile accident, health insurance doesn’t pay for medical. That’s the auto insurance.
How did this all work 70 years ago? People faced their morality, instead of blaming other or suing someone. There has been many advancements in health care since then. But, not unlike most things, the cost of getting the best of anything is out of the reach of many or most people. Some things should be less costly, insulin for example, and the gov’t, lawyers and lobbyists make it hard to get reasonable prices for those things. All in the name of paying for more research. For new and better care/drugs. That you or I can’t afford.
Insurance companies try to redistribute the costs among a group of willing participants. Obamacare was designed to redistribute the wealth by force.
mortality. f’n spell check…
If they could ever get the VA running right that would be a good place to have the people with preexisting conditions get their health care, the whole system is already in place.
Does anyone know how many people we are talking about going into high risk pools?
And what do we do with children born with a preexisting condition are they on there parents plan until age 26 then what?
Scroll down to number 5.
http://www.barnhardt.biz/2017/03/25/back-to-work/
This issue is like treating a nasty, chronic illness. There are NO pain free paths from here.
The only question remaining is whom do we inflict the pain upon.
@AA – they talk to the priest 😉
90% of the American insured have not had to worry about ‘preexisting conditions’ since 1996 HIPAA law was passed because they obtain their health insurance through their employer. No employer ever asks you how many medications you take or if your family has a history of cancer or heart disease before they hire you. Why? Because it’s been illegal to do so since 1996 HIPAA law passed. Today that 90% equates to about 173 million Americans. There are however about 23 million Americans who do not have employer sponsored health insurance and as such must purchase their own individual health insurance coverage. Here’s how the newly passed American Health Care Act handles those among that group who have ‘preexisting conditions’. Those who keep consistent coverage in place without any lapse in coverage will be able to move freely from one individual policy to the next and cannot be charged anymore for a preexisting condition (just like those who have employer sponsored coverage). Those who REFUSE to keep consistent coverage in place and who as such attempt to ‘game the system’ by WAITING until they are SICK to buy health insurance (which drives up the costs for everyone else) will be penalized up to 30% more for health insurance (it should be a stiffer penalty). Those who are so sick that they are uninsurable (which is about 4% of the 23 million who buy individual health insurance) will be able to buy affordable health insurance coverage through state high risk health insurance pools which existed for decades before Obamacare destroyed them. $128 billion was allocated under the AHCA to ensure that those people have affordable coverage when they buy health insurance in the soon to be resurrected state run high risk health insurance pools. This is the way it was done for 20 years before Obamacare as dictated in 1996 HIPAA law. The problem was that before Obamacare there were about 5 states that did not follow that federal HIPPA law and did not have a functional high risk pool or other risk mitigation system in their state. The American Health Care Act mandates that ALL states not only have one in place but that it is well funded via $128 billion over the next 9 years. Now, that SOUNDS like a lot of money (and it is) but not when compared to the $56 billion we will spend just THIS year on Obamacare health insurance subsidies. So it’s a MUCH less expensive way to ensure that those who are the sickest among us have access to affordable health insurance. Why is it cheaper? Because we are once again going to separate those who are the sickest from the healthy pools so that premiums for healthy people are reduced significantly. There is a REASON that health insurance premiums in the individual market increased by more than 150% in the last 3 years. It’s because Obamacare forced the healthy to pay for the sick by lumping everyone into the same risk pool. That was really, REALLY dumb and the American Health Care Act fixes that. Is it the ‘best’ way to do it? I say yes, providing of course that we all agree that the sickest among us should be able to have access to affordable health insurance. I do. I’d also like to see across state line sales and Med Mal a.k.a. “Tort” reform as well but until we get 60 votes in the Senate, that’s not going to happen.
BTW, if you get hurt in an automobile accident, health insurance doesn’t pay for medical. That’s the auto insurance.>>
The answer, then, is to get your cancer in a car.
Here’s a microscopic example of one of the true villains is this very complex issue….I take a minimal generic prescription for my blood pressure. It’s $15 for 90 days if I don’t use insurance….If I use my insurance it’s $40 for 90 days….with a 6K deductible….Maybe a true example of who is the true varmint in health care cost is?….you decide…
C.Steven.
How do we handle border jumpers, and deadbeats, that flood our hospitals?
I went without insurance for a period of time and my dentist charged me a cash rate of $45 to clean my teeth. With insurance, the same cleaning is charged $175 and insurance pays all of that minus the deductible, $75. With insurance it cost me $30 more out of pocket than if I had no insurance. Further, he charges $230 for fillings of which is covered only 80% for the first $1000, or $46 out of pocket, after $1000 the coverage is only something like 40%. Cash price is $80 per filling. Bottom line if my family needs more than 5 fillings in any given year (or more than $1000 of insurance priced work), it’s cheaper to not have insurance.
…And everyone thinks it’s there to help pay the big bills. Yeah, the bills are big BECAUSE of insurance.
Erm, I just went thru this with my auto insurer. I’m on the cheapest medical with them, $5000.
That $5000 is to cover the deductible that my medical insurance will charge me because of the accident. Medical insurance can be used for auto accidents. For instance, think about a passenger who gets injured are they suppose to review the auto policy before getting in the car to make sure they are covered? No, their own medical covers them.
“How can a monetized capitalist system solve this problem?”
When one’s articles of faith defy one’s own lying eyes, perhaps it’s best to just cling to faith and await divine delivery. Life’s really not that long a song.
A huge piece of the problem is the explosion of a nonworking nonworking Permaneht Underclass who are paid and incentivized to breed and multiply. 2-4-8-16-32-64-128-256-512-1024-2048-4096-8192-16,484-32,968.
Domestic poverty programs are problematic enough. Add in immigration designed to completely displace and replace the existing population and you have Cloward-Piven, in spades.
Why don’t all the people who can’t get health insurance start their own insurance company and insure themselves?
@csteventucker
“No employer ever asks you how many medications you take or if your family has a history of cancer or heart disease before they hire you. Why? Because it’s been illegal to do so since 1996”
Bullshit on toast.
With every Pee sample you taste.
Remember… only ‘Workers’ HAVE to provide Pee first.
Whose Bossin who here?
@Rufus T Firefly May 5, 2017 at 2:52 pm
> Add in immigration designed to completely displace and replace the existing population
Designed to subsume the existing population.
(No, it’s not just semantics.)
Ye’rr Nalysis, That is a condition of maintaining not obtaining employment. Two different issues. You can thank Obamacare for that new requirement also.
We’d have to repeal Reagan’s E.M.T.A.L.A to stop thar Fur, that will never happen. So I say secure the border at the very least so we can cut the cost of uncompensated care down significantly.
Reagan signed into law that anyone unable to pay gets treatment anyway— the lord of conservatives.
@AnonBeWrong
Anonymous May 5, 2017 at 4:29 pm
“Ye’rr Nalysis, That is a condition of maintaining not obtaining employment. Two different issues.”
@C STEVEN TUCKER May 5, 2017 at 4:34 pm
Oh, bloody ell, Mr. Smith! There hasn’t been any “cost of uncompensated care” since the second quarter after the regulation. Even the proles can see that! If ten ten-pound aspirin are not “compensated” for in the ER, so a hundred previously ten-pound aspirin are marked up to twenty-pounds each, upstairs, under the goodthink rubric of covering the “losses” caused by the proles in the ER, even the Outer Party will find quacking that as “uncompensated” to be a thought too far.
Let the private sector run healthcare like a menu with all the prices listed for each service.
Lasik used to be 6 grand for two eyes. Now it’s under 500 for both, and it’s customized to your cornea.
If government had control of Lasik, it’d be 25,000 by now – for one eye.