Carhartt Jacket Stops NYPD Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124-Grain +P Hollow Points

TAG-

“Four of the shots that cops fired at a madman waving a knife in Midtown failed to penetrate his jacket — which was not bulletproof — and the NYPD will now check the weapons for malfunction, law enforcement sources told The Post.” The Post reports that the non-bullet-resistant jacket in question was a Carhartt. Regular reader will instantly wonder: how many bullets did the notoriously inaccurate NYPD fire at one Garry Conrad, how many hit him and how many failed to penetrate his outwear? Glad you asked . . .

A sergeant and an officer fired a total of nine rounds at 46-year-old Garry Conrad on Wednesday, with one of the shots killing the depressed Broadway stagehand who refused to drop the blade at West 49th Street and Eighth Avenue.

Four of the bullets got lodged in Conrad’s Carhartt jacket, sources said, adding that he was not wearing a bulletproof vest.

!snip!

Theories?

The cops missed?

The jacket has a Whipple Shield effect?

The jacket is bulletproof?

ht/ just the tip

 

33 Comments on Carhartt Jacket Stops NYPD Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124-Grain +P Hollow Points

  1. My guess would be that the fabric layers were strong enough when draped loosely to absorb the inertia of the bullet and stop the fast moving, medium weight for caliber, hollow point projectile while still in the fabric. A heavier weight 9mm (like 147 grain) might have penetrated and the heavier, slower moving .40 S&W offerings might have penetrated as well. The energy might have been absorbed by the “collapsing” action of the jacket in relation to the point of impact – like trying to catch an egg tossed to you, you move your hand backward while trying to catch the egg to reduce the initial impact of the egg (this was an exercise used by one of my college baseball coaches to help infielders develop “soft hands” when catching baseballs).

  2. Overpressure ammunition, commonly designated as +P or +P+, is small arms ammunition that has been loaded to a higher internal pressure than is standard for ammunition of its caliber (see internal ballistics), but less than the pressures generated by a proof round.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V9UxDu4smlI

  3. Been a small caliber, light, fast bullet
    problem all along. The WW I and WW II
    heavy woolen greatcoats worn by
    European combat troops were known
    to stop these type of pistol rounds on
    occasion. Much to the unhappiness
    and lethal embarrassment of the shooter I’d imagine.

  4. Backyard ballistics experts will be testing this in due time. Videos will be posted. Darwinis will be awarded.

  5. My money would be in the “they simply missed” category and there’s many a dead or wounded bystander who’d back my observation about the marksmanship of NYPD.

    Everyone but the perps would be safer if LEOs carried AR carbines with TAP rounds instead of pistols.

  6. seriously though, out here in flyover country where necks are red and it gets bitter cold in the winter (thank you global warming) Carhartt work clothes are the norm. Everyone who isn’t a city dwelling office worker has at least a Carhartt jacket, if not the full coverall setup. (for varying amounts of everyone)

    These Carhartt work clothes are indestructible, they are warm and they are popular for a reason.

    Bullet proof? I’m waiting for the YT vids as well.

  7. I wore my old lineman Ameritech Carhartt on Halloween, had a few cocktails, got on my bike and spilled pretty hard. Where there should have been road rash, the jacket didn’t have so much as a scratch.

  8. There was a lively discussion in the TTAG comments and it seemed split more-or-less evenly between “Carhartt is a mighty tough jacket” and “NYPD cops missed and as usual are lying about it.”

    BTW – there was one innocent bystander injured slightly on the wrist. So, chalk up yet another NYPD failure of gun safety law #3.

  9. As noted on TTAG, the cops fired multiple rounds which means that the ammo was potent enough to work the action to eject the fired brass and load the next round. Old ammo might explain one weak shot, but not two or more.

  10. As to aged ammo, my experience with 8mm from the late ’40’s is that it gets hotter, not weaker. my explanation is that the extruded powder breaks apart into a finer particle size so it ignites quicker and burns more completely by the time the bullet leaves the muzzle.

    I don’t remember the exact data but my brother and his buddy clocked the old Turk stuff doing about three grand which is truck’in for a bullet that weighs something like 190 gr. You have to slap hell out of the bolt to get it to open after each shot.

    No idea if this would follow with pistol ammo.

  11. Carhart jackets are not likely to become popular in the hood; they are WORK jackets.

    They are badass, though, after all, Chuck Norris wears one as Walker, Texas Ranger. The ultimate badass.

  12. Back in my younger days as a law student working in one of the NYC DA’s offices, an old time NYPD guy on limited duty due to injury said that the standard issue NYPD ammo back then for their .38s would not penetrate some ski parkas that the ‘yutes wore in the winter, and that in some precincts the members bought their own ammo to replace the standard issue, if only to be as evenly armed as them–this was pre-Glock time in the seventies.
    Sounds like the times haven’t changed.

  13. They probably failed to penetrate because they had passed through a couple of bystanders first.

    Also, for the 45 cult: 9mm penetrates more than .45 ACP.

  14. Owen
    I carry either a 9mm or a 45 daily. If I didn’t have confidence in the 9mm stopping power I wouldn’t carry it. But there’s a HUGE difference in energy between a 9mm and a 45. A 9mm simply is not in the same class.

  15. Bad_Brad

    I am a fan of the 45 as well. It is a classic American round and well proven for serious social work. But there is an attendant mythology associated with it. There’s actually not a huge difference in energy between the two. 9mm usually has more muzzle energy in fact. Because of its smaller frontal section, it also tends to penetrate deeper than .45. That was my point in mentioning it in response to all the previous “shoulda used a .45” comments — if we’re talking about lack of penetration then a .45 might actually have done worse rather than better.

  16. Owen, 9mm should have got the job done pretty easy. I don’t always beleive those Gel penetration tests. If I shoot the same steel reactive targets with a 9mm and a 45 the results are glaring. If I’m our screwing around in the woods shooting a dead tree the 9mm will penetrate very similar to a 22 long. But the 45 blows chunks of wood off. What do Navy Seals carry? 9mm.

  17. Bad_Brad

    I agree. Any service caliber should be able to penetrate a Carhartt jacket easily. Even if the hollow point clogged with fabric and failed to expand, in that case it should have penetrated more rather than less. These bullets, if indeed the report of their failure is accurate, must have encountered some intermediate barrier. Maybe they were ricochets off the pavement or something. If there was a problem with the cartridge causing them to be that underpowered, seems like they would have also failed to cycle the pistol.

    45 has lots of momentum, as you see in reactive targets. That’s where it really shines. If the 9mm is like a dagger the .45 is like a sledge hammer. I have plinked at things like old appliances and old street signs, and you’ll often see that 9mm puts a hole where .45 puts a big dent.

    I alternate carry between a 9mm Shield and a Kimber 1911. I’m a believer in both calibers.

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