Too Many Shots Fired? – IOTW Report

Too Many Shots Fired?

39 Comments on Too Many Shots Fired?

  1. Definitely suicide by police. Thank God he was white, otherwise the headlines would have screamed 100 shots fired in 25 seconds – innocent black man murdered by cops.

  2. Stop shooting when he’s down.
    How many rounds actually hit the suspect?
    Never bring a knife to a gun fight.
    The only weapon effective against the cops is a lawyer.

  3. “suicide by police”

    Definitely. Our society is currently pretty sick. These cops are going to need to work a little harder to top Chicago’s finest. 96 rounds in 42 seconds is a high mark to beat.

  4. I don’t waste my time much by reading comments focused on the claim “he/they shot too many times.” Universally, those saying that fail utterly to take into account the time/speed at which these encounters nearly always take place. The objective is always “to stop the threat.”

    Well, just how can you tell that the threat has stopped? The best proxy is movement, and the simplest criterion is that if the bad guy is still moving, he’s still a threat: if he’s still moving, keep shooting.

    But, especially if there are multiple shooters which is common in cops doing their signature point and shoot mag dumps, when a bullet strikes a body, the body moves. Muzzle energy charts abound (and muzzle energy doesn’t drop all that much at the close range most cop shooting happens at) and tell us that most common cop and self-defense ammo (9 mm, .40S&W) have muzzle energy from 300 to 500 ft.-lbs. That will make a body twitch, all right.

    So the very act of shooting the bad guy makes keeps the bad guy still moving. Now, consider that all this takes place in usually a single-digit number of seconds and with everybody involved pumping enough adrenalin to float a flat-top. Bottom line: you shouldn’t be shooting unless there’s a lethal threat, so continuing to shoot while your target is still moving should be default trained behavior.

    I admit to a hard cringe when I read about a cop dumping as many as three mags into some guy. Now, that cop may well be a blood-thirsty animal needing to be put down, but until I have more info I’ll assume he’s just barely bright enough to know he couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn from the inside and figures he needs 50 rounds to have a good chance of hitting the guy three or four times. But I’d keep a close eye on him.

  5. Come on now, he was dead before he hit the ground. Adrenaline is a killer self preservation natural element. Wow. They probably were freaked out about which officer the knife would have been aimed at if thrown.

    Still, since the weapon was a knife, one officer could have taken the lead to eliminating the threat, first. If he failed, signal the next officer to shoot. Guess, that’s not as effective as multiple shots, but 96 shots? Yeah. overkill.

  6. Now, I have to say, this lunatic was given a ton of chances to put the knife down and stop the madness. These officers did what they could to defuse the situation and should be commended for it. Yes, I would definitely want them around if my life was in danger.

  7. @ Uncle Al Monday, 15 April 2024, 18:08 at 6:08 pm,
    All reads good and reasonable….. BUT! If I (CCW citizen) execute a mag dump on a perpetrator, the chances are high that I will end up in prison with big Leroy the lover.. Always interesting to me that we citizens are held to a higher standard than the well trained (and pretty shrill) bois in blu..

  8. The cops made sure that they fulfilled the first rule of being a cop. Go home after the shift.

    The mag dump just tells me that they cant shoot very well. There should have been a maximum of 3 shots fired.

  9. Husband and I got our CCW permits in SW CO 2013. One thing I will never forget was the aim for center mass to stop the threat. Do not try to shoot someone in the the leg, they will probably sue you for damages later. This instruction was introduced with soul searching – are you decided with the consequences of a kill in you moral choice. Our answers, within ourselves, was yes. Kill or be killed. We choose to live before some perp moves along to kills others. We be the winners of life.

  10. Uncle Al and 99th make some really good points. Ya know the Fibbies keep all kinds of stats. One stat they use to track was how many rounds were fired in a CCW encounter vs a PoPo encounter. Average rounds fired by a ccw is two. Been that way for ever. Average number of rounds discharged by LE is ALL OF THEM. That’s actually fairly recent. Like maybe the last 15 years.

  11. You can argue that the cops SHOULD have stopped when the dude dropped like a shot, because obviously hes no longer a threat. OTOH, one needs to understand that once you shoot to kill, you are amped up to the max. You automatically keep at it till there are no more bullets.

    And even if you conclude that shots were excessive, so what? Dude was a goner the moment he dropped straight to the ground. Even if cops somehow controlled themselves, best outcome is he takes up an ICU room for a few days .. until they pull the plug

  12. And if our elites weren’t all steaming piles of human excrement and wanted to solve these problems as opposed to aggravating them, they would play up this video ..

    “You see, this happens to white folks too. He wasnt an instant threat to any of the cops (at that very instant) In fact, he seemed to be suicidal. And yet they fired as many as 30 bullets at him, even after he dropped lifelessly to the ground

    “So was this white on white racism .. or is this what will happen to anybody if you walk around with a deadly weapon and dont drop it when they tell you to. And this wasnt even a gun”

  13. ^^^^^ One thousand thumbs up.
    They closed all the psych wards and now the lunatics roam the streets.
    I was never a cop. I have taken shooting courses in the past.
    I always analyze these evens from my perspective. If I have to fire I’m gonna make sure this f-cker has NO chance of hurting me (suing me).
    Anyone who criticizes the amount of shots fired most likely would have both pissed and shit his/her pants if that was him/her.

  14. As an old instructor, we always taught to shoot to stop the threat, and that usually means SHOOT THEM TO THE GROUND! I know a lot of people think it’s excessive…maybe it was, but if you’ve ever seen a body that has been sliced up with a knife you would want to make sure too!

    It’s also good to give your firearm a good workout…especially the spring in the magazine!

  15. Doc

    I’m not thinking you taught spray and pray. Where’s the trigger control? Where’s the target acquisition? Recoil control? Nada.
    I’m not saying killing this guy was avoidable. Saving this guy should have occurred months ahead of this altercation. And by all means these cops deserve to go home at night. I’m glad they did. I could go on. Hopefully you get my point.

  16. If assholes attack me I should shoot them a lot, too.

    But I’m a different class of citizen. As Crackerbaby pointed out, even carrying a 5 shot revolver, and all the shots going into some scumbag, I’m suddenly the criminal.

    BFH even mildly jumped into my ass about brandishing. Cops can and will brandish on every point of the compass. I will go to jail if I do that.

  17. Erik

    Does your state allow open carry? Not sure what state you live in. Tonight I live in the state of confusion. If you don’t and pull your weapon for no particular reason you are breaking THEIR laws. Carrying concealed is a skill set everyone should learn. Permit or not.

  18. I’m in MO.

    I see a lot of open carry. I don’t do it, now.

    I did try it, but people noticed it and wanted to ask 100 question.

    I’d prefer to be just buying apples.

  19. My wife sometimes wants the 5 shot Taurus, or the 365.

    So I carry different shit.

    But my mainstay is the .41 AE. Tanfoglio CZ copy.

  20. Once the suspect was on the ground EVERY round fired was unnecessary and excessive. There is NO need to continue firing at someone on the ground who
    only has a knife. At that moment they are NOT a threat. ONLY if they get back up can they be considered one. This EMPTY YOUR MAGAZINE every chance you get is PISS POOR TRAINING.

  21. Cops are trained to de escalate situations. When it comes to your rights, like your 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, the majority of interactions with police are actually escalated to make you surrender those rights. When the decision is made to violate your rights by any officer of the thin blue line gang, all gang members pile on to make you comply, with force. It’s the same thing when you put a gun in the hands of a gang, but this is the only time the gang meets and/or exceeds objectives of de escalation.

  22. great work by the officers. keep firing, shit happens quick. officers get to go home at night and have a couple of days off before dealing with the pencil pushing hand-jobs that did approx 5 mins on the streets. typical comments by the usual suspects

  23. Judge: Why did you fire 15 rounds?

    Shooter: Because my magazine was empty.

    Police (as a whole) are notorious for limited accuracy.
    Most shoot their weapon once a year for recertification.
    Generally speaking in a highly stressful scenario the police hit their target around 20% of the time. That’s why they went to high capacity magazines. High capacity magazines were cheaper than allowing Under staffed officers more range time.
    I’ve bought a few used guns from Police Departments when they were replacing Officer weapons. Practically new (Bore 95+%) with external cosmetic scratches. Nice guns.

  24. Yep, there were a lot of shots fired. Seems to me that from an official point of view, once the first shot is fired the desired outcome is a dead subject so firing very often at that subject is appropriate and even necessary.

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